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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to have said she's raising psychopaths.

568 replies

OohMavis · 05/08/2017 19:22

My friend and I have fallen out.

She has zero empathy for any type of animal or living thing other than herself and her children, basically. I find that utterly baffling and quite upsetting, and I don't think I'm unreasonable in that respect, but I might have overstepped a mark a bit by saying this, and I want some opinions.

She was here yesterday with her two children so our children could play together. They were playing in the garden, we were sitting out with them, chatting. DD came running to me, excited, saying she'd found a really big beetle, asking for me to come and see. She's 3 and obsessed with mini beasts. My friend's children overheard and came to see too. They ran ahead of me and my friend followed behind, by the time we'd arrived her son had STOMPED on this beautiful stag beetle (I think) and killed it Angry

DD was so fucking upset. Honestly, it was just such an unecessary thing to do. The kid is 7. It's inexcusable. I reacted, raised my voice a bit and said "Why did you do that?!" he just laughed and said he wanted to stand on it. I said that's a really nasty thing to do. Then bent down to see if he'd 'popped its head off'. He had, he was quite pleased with himself. His mother said nothing, I looked at her for a response and got a half-shrug.

DD was in tears by this point so I took her back to where we were sitting and friend joined me. I was comforting DD. She said, "I think they get it from me, they just don't like animals"
I replied, "well that's fine but they shouldn't kill them"
"Well it's not like it was a cat or something"
And this is where I got a bit angry and said "yes well it starts off that way doesn't it, with that attitude you're raising two psycopaths"

She was obviously offended. Sat there for twenty more minutes with a look on her face before making an excuse and leaving, awkwardly. Got a text later saying she thought I was completely out of order calling her kids psycopaths, kids step on insects and I'm overreacting. I didn't reply. She texted again telling me I'm a hypocrite since I'm not even vegetarian Hmm and she doesn't think she'll be coming again.

WIBU to mention the word psychopath. I was angry, it may have been over the top, but I still think it.

OP posts:
Fresh8008 · 06/08/2017 19:32

Does no one come from a fishing family? It is quite normal to teach children to kill insects for fun. And its not in the search for food because the fish are thrown back, all sorts of live bate, insects etc that are killed in the pursuit of 'fun'.

YouTheCat · 06/08/2017 19:33

Just because lots of people say it, doesn't mean it's right.

As a female tree climbing, bug hunting explorer, I believe you are talking out of your behind.

Hygge · 06/08/2017 19:40

Mumzy - The conversation isn't about boys as such. The child in the OP's post happens to be a boy.

Some, thankfully few people on this threat (possibly just you and one other) have turned it that way by using nonsense like "boys will be boys" and it's a bit of a cop out. Lots of people (all two of you) saying it must mean it's true though Hmm

I don't have a snowflake. I have a child who has always respected other people and animals. I don't have a crystal ball though so I'm speaking from our experience up to today. Or yesterday actually, when we were collecting pinecones in the wood and he found some weird caterpillar thing in one and made sure we put that one back exactly where we found it so the caterpillar was safe and didn't get hurt.

I can't see that changing. If it does, I'll take issue with him and find out why. It won't be just because he's a boy though.

So you'll still be wrong.

OfficerVanHalen · 06/08/2017 19:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Tofutti · 06/08/2017 20:40

Kids step on beetles all the time, especially boys.

Where do you live Mumzy? You seem to have an abundance of boys and beetles around.

Gabilan · 06/08/2017 20:41

Boys are different. They should be able to run through woods screaming and shouting and running free. They should be able to climb trees and let their imagination run a little wild

Children of either gender should be allowed to do those things if they so wish. However, they shouldn't feel obliged to do that because they are boys, or put off outdoor activity because they are girls. There is an enormous amount of information out there about socialisation and gender stereotyping.

"Boys will be boys" is generally used to excuse poor behaviour in boys and men. You'll notice girls and women don't have a similar get-out clause for socially inexcusable behaviour. Instead, the weight of expectation is on them to change in order to conform. It's odd, Mumzy to accuse people who disagree with you of ignorance. It's a fair bet that they've taken a reasonable amount of time to investigate these issues themselves, rather than fall back on lazy stereotyping and "oh but lots of people say it".

Zarah123 · 06/08/2017 20:45

I have a feeling an accusation of bullying is forthcoming.

Fresh8008 · 06/08/2017 21:53

But boys and girls are different and its no surprise that they react differently when they see an insect, that doesn't make either reaction wrong.

Kickhiminthenuts · 06/08/2017 22:03

fresh are you serious?!
My boy sees a stag beetle, gets excited, gets me, asks for the laptop to log it on the PTES website.
He doesn't stomp on it because of his genes!!!

Gender has fuck all to do with it

Kickhiminthenuts · 06/08/2017 22:04

And it does make it wrong when it's squashing out a life for pleasure. No matter how big or small we all have our role to play on this earth.

Fresh8008 · 06/08/2017 22:12

He doesn't stomp on it because of his genes!!!
How do you know that? Children that young are not held criminally responsible for their actions precisely because they dont always know if it is wrong. Its up to parents to teach them what is considered right and wrong, and it seems in this case the parents haven't.

Fresh8008 · 06/08/2017 22:16

And it does make it wrong when it's squashing out a life for pleasure
Millions of animals are killed everyday for adults pleasure, (personally I find it abhorrent) but I find it hard to fault a child for something adults haven't figured out yet.

YouTheCat · 06/08/2017 22:20

The child is hardly likely to work it out as his mother seems to encourage it though.

Carouselfish · 06/08/2017 22:21

yanbu. it's a shitty attitude for her to take, not even telling him off for upsetting your DD but there's something pretty wrong with someone who just 'doesn't like animals' anyway. That shows she has pathetically low empathy (which is actually just a directed form of imagination - so no imagination). She must have a very narrow, sheltered life if she has to rule out, not just one or two things she's scared of or repulsed by, but EVERYTHING else that is alive and not human - the rest of the planet. Can't see her being much in the way of conversation anyway. Well rid.

Kickhiminthenuts · 06/08/2017 22:24

fresh it's not a boy thing. It's because he enjoys the reaction, the pleasure from power over it.
His parents should have taught him better, yes.
But,
It's fuck all to do with being born with a penis.

Hygge · 06/08/2017 22:30

"He doesn't stomp on it because of his genes!!!"

"How do you know that? Children that young are not held criminally responsible for their actions precisely because they dont always know if it is wrong. Its up to parents to teach them what is considered right and wrong, and it seems in this case the parents haven't."

So even you're saying they're not held accountable because of age, not sex. Being a boy has nothing to do with what he did. Age, maybe. Upbringing, quite likely. But not just being a boy.

Fresh8008 · 06/08/2017 22:30

it's not a boy thing. It's because he enjoys the reaction, the pleasure from power over it.
I am not disagreeing, I am asking how is it that you know this because the matter hasn't been proven yet. There is a lot of evidence to suggest boys do have different inherent impulses than girls, which could explain why there is a tendency to a different natural reaction.

cluelessnewmum · 06/08/2017 22:35

Yanbu, I'd be ashamed and concerned if a child of mine (male or female) acted like that. There's a difference between killing for a purpose (for food), killing because something is a nuisance or hazard (eg a mosquito in your bedroom) and just mindless killing for no reason.

I don't think that all kids that do this end up being psychopaths but I'd be concerned about a lack of empathy, that is symptomatic in psychopaths.

Fresh8008 · 06/08/2017 22:37

So even you're saying they're not held accountable because of age, not sex

Not really, there is a spectrum upon which boys have a tendency to one end and girls the other. But its not mutually exclusive. However with age, reasoning (as a result of learning) can over come the baser instincts. Unfortunately most of the adult world still finds pleasure in killing animals for all sorts of frivolous reasons.

MimsyFluff · 06/08/2017 22:54

There are two psychopath boys up the road from me, what that boy did was cruel but nothing compared to those poor boys why SS haven't removed them yet is shameful they need help teacher confirmed this when I logged yet another complaint about them and their poor parenting.

My DD's wouldn't step on a bug for pleasure and I can 100% be sure if I had a DS he wouldn't either

OfficerVanHalen · 06/08/2017 23:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HiJenny35 · 07/08/2017 01:19

Totally reasonable. It's not ok to kill anything for fun.
As for the point about telling children it's ok to wash spiders down the sink, no that's not ok either, what's wrong with you, catch it in a glass and pop it out the window, it's hardly difficult and raise your children with respect for all living things.

LittleLionMansMummy · 07/08/2017 07:16

I believe there is some evidence which suggests that boys and men are less empathic than girls or women. Whether that is genetics or social conditioning is disputed though I think. For example, the 'boys will be boys' attitude which is still quite prevalent may mean that parents are more tolerant to boys behaving in the way the op describes. Thankfully more people are challenging this attitude and of course children are all different. I have a very empathic boy (who still likes running, shouting, swors fighting and climbing trees) as well as an 8mo dd who will be encouraged to do exactly the same.

LittleLionMansMummy · 07/08/2017 07:17

If she'd like to, of course!

Jijhebtseksmetezels · 07/08/2017 07:37

OP, YANBU. Years ago when DS was little we were on holiday when I heard him screaming. The boy he was playing with had purposefully rain a screw through the shell of snail. Just for fun.

DS was traumatised and when the boy's father came along the boy asked "why is JijDS crying?" to which the idiot father replied "oh he's just very sensitive". As if it was my son being abnormal!

I was right pissed off and wish I'd said something but I let my son know in private that I was proud of his empathy for that poor snail.