to have said she's raising psychopaths.

[OohMavis]

My friend and I have fallen out.

She has zero empathy for any type of animal or living thing other than herself and her children, basically. I find that utterly baffling and quite upsetting, and I don't think I'm unreasonable in that respect, but I might have overstepped a mark a bit by saying this, and I want some opinions.

She was here yesterday with her two children so our children could play together. They were playing in the garden, we were sitting out with them, chatting. DD came running to me, excited, saying she'd found a really big beetle, asking for me to come and see. She's 3 and obsessed with mini beasts. My friend's children overheard and came to see too. They ran ahead of me and my friend followed behind, by the time we'd arrived her son had STOMPED on this beautiful stag beetle (I think) and killed it

DD was so fucking upset. Honestly, it was just such an unecessary thing to do. The kid is 7. It's inexcusable. I reacted, raised my voice a bit and said "Why did you do that?!" he just laughed and said he wanted to stand on it. I said that's a really nasty thing to do. Then bent down to see if he'd 'popped its head off'. He had, he was quite pleased with himself. His mother said nothing, I looked at her for a response and got a half-shrug.

DD was in tears by this point so I took her back to where we were sitting and friend joined me. I was comforting DD. She said, "I think they get it from me, they just don't like animals"
I replied, "well that's fine but they shouldn't kill them"
"Well it's not like it was a cat or something"
And this is where I got a bit angry and said "yes well it starts off that way doesn't it, with that attitude you're raising two psycopaths"

She was obviously offended. Sat there for twenty more minutes with a look on her face before making an excuse and leaving, awkwardly. Got a text later saying she thought I was completely out of order calling her kids psycopaths, kids step on insects and I'm overreacting. I didn't reply. She texted again telling me I'm a hypocrite since I'm not even vegetarian and she doesn't think she'll be coming again.

WIBU to mention the word psychopath. I was angry, it may have been over the top, but I still think it.

U2.....again, of course girls can do the same, that's not what is being discussed here. Generally boys do it. Fact of nature, but there are a lot on here who won't have that at all, so yes I would say if they say that, it's slightly ignorant. For the record I didn't say boys need to do that more than girls. You have misread that to suit your own purposes.

*I was a girl at the time of the indirect bug torture/killing

What do I think boys should be doing? That's impossible to answer....they're all so different from one another.

Let me ask you....what do you think women should be doing? Like, all of them... we should all be doing...what? Washing our petticoats?

I think that on average girls are taught not to squash stuff sooner and we internalise that rule earlier?

I obviously found a way round that when I killed my bugs.

My children were discouraged from obliterating living things for the sake of it, as a matter of course. Girl and boy alike. I think that's usual?

Of course not Pictish... because we are so different. You have clearly come on here to look for an argument. I said "what do you think boys should be doing" to someone, because they clearly disagreed that boys like to run through woods, screaming, and picking up sticks.....so my curiosity got the better of me. When someone intimates that is a load if drivel, of course I'm going to ask them about it...then you come along and turn it round to mean something else.....pah

Just take out the word 'boys' in the first place and insert 'children' instead. It's as simple as that.

I spent a fair part of my youth (in the 70s) running wild, observing wildlife and up trees. Never felt the need to deliberately kill anything and neither did my brothers or any of our friends. Anyone who'd done something like the lad in the OP did would not have had many friends left.

Hygge...I can't honestly say I have seen my boy kill a bug...he may have done, just can't recall seeing him doing it. He's too busy running and jumping and climbing trees etc....you say your son would be horrified if he saw my boy do it? You might be surprised there....I saw kids in my street having great fun killing ants the other day.

You pour boiling water on ants iirr.

Pictish.....someone was arguing that the phrase "boys will be boys" was wrong...I was discussing that. So I was talking about boys. Boys in particular.

It simply isn't in boy's nature to kill bugs. No more than it is in girl's nature anyway.

Mumzypopz - "I said "what do you think boys should be doing" to someone, because they clearly disagreed that boys like to run through woods, screaming, and picking up sticks."

That's not what that poster was disagreeing with, but I think you know that.

Are you the mother the OP has posted about? Because you seem to have an odd idea about what boys do, and you have implied that your son would kill something for fun, just because he is a boy.

Yet you've been told repeatedly that it's not something other boys do.

I mean, these are your words:

"People say "especially boys"... because generally boys do stuff like that, it's in their nature."

But no, it's not. It's not in every boy's nature to do this. Speak for your own son if you must, but not ours.

Also your words:

"I walked down the street with my son once we went past one of those swingy metal signs and he kicked it. "Why would you do that", I asked him, he shrugged his shoulders, he didn't know. Its just what they do."

Children can do odd things and not know why. It's not just boys, it's not just what boys do. But kicking a sign and deliberately killing something for fun are very different.

And here's where you imply that your son does something just because he's a boy, that your daughter doesn't do just because she's a girl:

"Walking through a wood with my son and daughter, I know which one is going to be running, picking up sticks, climbing trees, screaming, shouting. He is just a boy."

And here:

"And yes, boys do stamp on things too... Just for fun, or just to see what it's like, or just to see your reaction. It's unavoidable sometimes. I don't think it means they are all going to grow up as phsycopaths."

But again, not all boys. Not my boy, not many of the boys talked about on this thread.

And not because we're forcing the nature out of them. Because it's already not in their nature to do this in the first place. Because it's not what "all" boys or "just" boys do.

Mumzy - you saw a child killing ants. I can bet it wasn't my child you saw, so no, I wouldn't be surprised.

He is, and always has been, very interested in and very careful with the creatures we see in the garden and on the street. As I said, he's the one moving snails and worms to make sure they don't get accidentally stepped on.

He isn't shy about speaking up when he thinks someone his hurting something. He saw a teenage girl deliberately step on a snail to hear the crunch it made and he wanted to know what was wrong with her.

So I wouldn't be surprised. I know him. He's not perfect, but he doesn't kill things for the fun of it, and he doesn't like people who do.

Gardeners' question time recommends standing on snails and scissors for slugs IIRR.

Hygge...the exact post was written by Donald at 17.39.....please read it. I said boys are different, they like running through woods screaming etc etc....Donald said that was a load of bullshit and sexist drivel.....I asked him what boys should be doing.

Hygge...it wasn't one child killing ants...there were about six of them, all boys.

While the psychopath comment may have been a tad extreme I can completely understand why you reacted like that in the heat of the moment. She doesn't have to like animals or nature; she should, however, realise that she's meant to be acting as a role model to her kids and teaching them not to be mindlessly cruel is part and parcel of that.

Personally, it makes me really sad when kids are completely disinterested in/cruel to the amazing natural world around them - they're missing out. But then I'm wary of adults who 'don't like animals' so maybe that's just me...

Mumzy - I did read it.

You said that parents were taking the nature out of boys behaviour and that boys were different.

Different to what? Girls? Because if so, that's the bit Donald was calling sexist bullshit. Boys don't have to and girls can if they like.

Your post was so full of the word "Boys" you should name-change to Sabrina.

And again, boys are not a hive mind or a collective nature.

Yanbu. If I were that mother, I'd feel very ashamed & would have immediately told off my dc for killing a living thing & laughing about it.

They do sound like psychopaths. It's just as well you found out their true colours now rather than later.

Mumzy, you said in your earlier post that boys are 'different'. Different from whom?

I'm also interested to know how you react when your boy/s 'unavoidably' stamp on beetles to see how you'll react?

I'm another with boys who doesn't think this is in their nature. The five year old wouldn't dream of it (thinks worms are great treasures and will spend ages finding them the best bit of earth for their lunch, spends ages analysing other minibeasts, is petrified if anything with wings and stings but still wouldn't kill them). The 18 month old is a bit small but already knows we don't pull the flowers off plants or the petals off flowers, and that we approach all living things with kind hands.

Hygge..my post was full of the word boys because that's what the conversation was about. Boys. I do think boys have in general a different nature to girls. Some don't. I agree with that. You only have to stand in a playground for a few minutes to see that. If you don't agree, fine. I also think there are a lot of parents who think their kids wouldn't do such and such...when they would. They refuse to see it. Children are an ever evolving thing, things they might not do when they are younger and spending all their time with you, they might do when they are older and not with you. I've heard lots of parents say "oh my little snowflake would never do that", when I've seen them do it with my own eyes. I think we need to agree to disagree. I've heard loads of people say the phrase "boys will be boys" and suchlike. The reason it's a common phrase is because lots of people say it. I think you may need to accept that there are people out there who think differently to you.