to have said she's raising psychopaths.

[OohMavis]

My friend and I have fallen out.

She has zero empathy for any type of animal or living thing other than herself and her children, basically. I find that utterly baffling and quite upsetting, and I don't think I'm unreasonable in that respect, but I might have overstepped a mark a bit by saying this, and I want some opinions.

She was here yesterday with her two children so our children could play together. They were playing in the garden, we were sitting out with them, chatting. DD came running to me, excited, saying she'd found a really big beetle, asking for me to come and see. She's 3 and obsessed with mini beasts. My friend's children overheard and came to see too. They ran ahead of me and my friend followed behind, by the time we'd arrived her son had STOMPED on this beautiful stag beetle (I think) and killed it

DD was so fucking upset. Honestly, it was just such an unecessary thing to do. The kid is 7. It's inexcusable. I reacted, raised my voice a bit and said "Why did you do that?!" he just laughed and said he wanted to stand on it. I said that's a really nasty thing to do. Then bent down to see if he'd 'popped its head off'. He had, he was quite pleased with himself. His mother said nothing, I looked at her for a response and got a half-shrug.

DD was in tears by this point so I took her back to where we were sitting and friend joined me. I was comforting DD. She said, "I think they get it from me, they just don't like animals"
I replied, "well that's fine but they shouldn't kill them"
"Well it's not like it was a cat or something"
And this is where I got a bit angry and said "yes well it starts off that way doesn't it, with that attitude you're raising two psycopaths"

She was obviously offended. Sat there for twenty more minutes with a look on her face before making an excuse and leaving, awkwardly. Got a text later saying she thought I was completely out of order calling her kids psycopaths, kids step on insects and I'm overreacting. I didn't reply. She texted again telling me I'm a hypocrite since I'm not even vegetarian and she doesn't think she'll be coming again.

WIBU to mention the word psychopath. I was angry, it may have been over the top, but I still think it.

You probably shouldn't have called them psychopaths, but I completely understand why you did. I would have gone NC after the pigeon thing tbh. That shows you the kind of person she is.

@OfficerVanHalen

Yes, you used them both in one post and you sound like an insufferable fool.

Was I correct? What is the connection?

Little sod. Completely unnecessary of him.
You don't have to like something to respect it and leave it alone.

I think your psychopath was slightly too far but I can see how you got there and actually at 7 enjoying taking the life of something is pretty grim.

"there's probably no problem with teaching children that it's ok to just go round twatting living things, especially boys,"

I think hitting (twatting) boys is terrible.

Don't you?

He didn't just step on a bug, he stamped on a beetle in its natural environment (not in the house) not because he was scared of it or careless but possibly because another child was excited about it and because he wanted to see and enjoy the mutilation he had caused to it. Then he showed no remorse or any understanding that it was not a good thing to do.*

This, in a nutshell. He took some kind of perverse delight in mashing the beetle and also the distress of OPs DD. That is really nasty and quite concerning.

As for the "boys will be boys" implications. What a load of absolute shite, I've got two boys and if they took delight in killing anything I'd be having words about why that's just not acceptable.

Probably not entirely diplomatic to call them psychopaths

Well said OP! Let us hope this horrid 'friend' heeds your warning.

I too have come across these little 'learner' psychopaths. Seven is almost too late to learn (yes,LEARN) empathy.

No respect for any living things. From chasing ducklings to stamping on insects.

Send this thread to Mummy Dearest.

YANBU, purposely causing harm or death to animals as a child is on the DSM IV as a criteria for indicating psychopathic traits.
Usually starting off with small insects and graduating up to animals.
Usually they don't do this with their mother's encouragement and justification though, so I'd say she is encouraging psychopathic traits in her DC. You just pointed that out.

You should tell her that Jeffrey Dahmer did the same thing to insects as a 7 yr old, within 20 years there were male human corpses in his fridge

Yes, Ian Brady started the same way, from what I've read. It is how psychopaths start. It actually seems to me they're copying their cat's behaviour. But obviously cats just act on instinct.

As did Son of Sam David Berkowitz, Mittens.

And Ted Bundy, Denis Rader (BTK), Albert DeSalvo (the Boston Strangler) also started with animals.
One of James Bulger's murderers, Robert Thomson, also used to torture the pets in the family.
Child killer Mary Bell began by strangling pigeons.

Parents who actively encourage this behaviour in their children need their own heads examining!

@LogicalPsycho, either way it's disturbing. I worry about the safety of the cat, they often get targeted for abuse.

Those boys will be awful bullies in school as well, and the friend will be one of those parents who refuse to do anything about it.

People say "especially boys"... because generally boys do stuff like that, it's in their nature. I walked down the street with my son once we went past one of those swingy metal signs and he kicked it. "Why would you do that", I asked him, he shrugged his shoulders, he didn't know. Its just what they do. Walking through a wood with my son and daughter, I know which one is going to be running, picking up sticks, climbing trees, screaming, shouting. He is just a boy. And yes, boys do stamp on things too... Just for fun, or just to see what it's like, or just to see your reaction. It's unavoidable sometimes. I don't think it means they are all going to grow up as phsycopaths.

Oh and if I see a spider in my house, I kill it. Maybe I'm a psychopath!!!!

I also hate the sentence 'boys will be boys'. It's true that I only have DDs, but I have 6 DNs, several of whom I've babysat or had to stay. None of them would ever relish upsetting a 3 year old girl by stamping on a beetle she was fascinated by and then been excited by its dead body. So no, that is not just what boys are like!

Over the years I have taught a few children lie this - they have not turned out well and a couple are doing v long stretches at her Maj's pleasure. Most children have learnt great compassion and empathy - seeing a child deliberately taking gleeful satisfaction at harming small animals is chilling and a huge red flag.
Don't blame you OP, I'd have been livid too.

Cruelty to animals as a child is a specific predictor of later psychopathy. YANBU.

Just don't be friends with that woman any more. She sounds like a nobhead, and her sons will clearly grow up to be nobheads. Let them get on with it

YANBU!!

Also, definitely don't text her back. She doesn't deserve your time

Anti social personality disorder tend to start very young, usually with stealing, hurting other children for pleasure and yes getting a kick from killing insects, which usually progresses to animals, then abusing humans.

Other traits are pyromania, risk taking behaviour ie speeding, and manipulating others by threatening self harm or suicide.

Lacking empathy, lacking remorse and lacking responsibility can be seen in young children such as a 7 year old

You are not being unreasionable Op, not at all.