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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

We're going to have to call a halt to Brexit aren't we?

999 replies

Hufflepug · 31/07/2017 09:51

Lukewarm Remain voter here. Understand that the Government has to listen to 'the will of the people' and all that.

But for the love of God, now that it's clear what absolute economic suicide we're committing surely we've got to put a halt to it whilst the govt and the opposition work out what the fuck's going on!

AIBU

OP posts:
Floisme · 31/07/2017 15:50

Someone needs to work on Boris. This is pure fantasy but if he did go on live tv and say, 'I really am sorry but I was just trying to get back at Camo for that time he thrashed me at Croquet in 1992 and the truth is, I'm a twat and I lied,' then you might, just possibly might get enough people willing to reconsider.

But even then, we'd still need remainers to turn down the 'stupid' rhetoric. If you want people to do an about turn, you have to leave them enough room to manoeuvre.

I don't think there's the slightest chance of either happening.

Motheroffourdragons · 31/07/2017 15:56

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

LaurieMarlow · 31/07/2017 16:03

Voiceforreason did the farmers and fishermen you speak of not give any thought to how long it would take us to get trade deals in place, the fact that we have no personnel qualified to negotiate these trade deals and the economic implication all of this delay, uncertainty would have on fisheries and agriculture sector, not to mention the low likelihood of even matching the terms we have at present?

Didn't they think of the grants they'd be losing out on when exiting the EU?

I am very far from convinced that leaving the EU was in the best interests of those who make their living in agriculture. Irish farmers (i'm Irish) were aghast at the very thought of it. They are the biggest europhiles going in Ireland.

Peregrina · 31/07/2017 16:04

Yes but at least Blair and Brown invested in the health service and education, which plenty of tory governments have completely ignored.

Yes, I was going to come back to say that. I agree that Blair and Brown didn't do enough, but Blair at least did sit for a North East Constituency, so should have been more minded about the problems facing the N East. (Was he?) I must say, it always seemed an unlikely constituency for him.

hettie · 31/07/2017 16:07

voiveforreason all that red tape and rules on fishing and farming might seem like 'being told what to do' but they are in fact about trade agreements... And if we want to trade with anyone (Australia, America..) then we will have to comply with different rules, but we will have to comply with the rules or we won't be allowed to trade. I'm fairly sure American Monsanto's dictated rules are likely just as crappy for plucky British farmers...That's global free market ecenomics for you (which is still actually quite protectionist)

Ijustwantaquietlife · 31/07/2017 16:11

Not sure Blaire and brown did much help with these hospitals they built on lots of debt. Pfi will be around for what another 59 years? They seemed to demolish buildings and build new ones with loads of problems rather than just fixing the current ones where j an.

LaurieMarlow · 31/07/2017 16:17

I think that's it actually, much of what many brexiteers interpreted as rules/interference/legislation foisted on us by the EU are more accurately the red tape that goes along with global business these days.

Instead of getting rid of all that red tape, we've got to start from scratch and construct/negotiate it for ourselves for every country we trade with. It's a nightmare.

mummmy2017 · 31/07/2017 16:23

We pay the Eu, who pay us not to grow food, they pay France and Spain as well as other countries to grown food to sell to us.
Gove said he wants to now pay farmers on what they grow not to leave land unused. i mean when the Golf Course gets more money from The Eu than small farmers something is VERY wrong.

Our fish is running out because the EU fish our waters more than we are allowed to, sold out so our trawlers are almost gone, so the BIG factory ships can come in and scoup are seas dry. while never even landing on our shores. Ireland are worries as they get some much of their fish in our waters.
MEP's get so much money with no bills needed, how can this be right?
No accounts, as there isn't accountability in EU. When were they last signed off?
EU have to decide what is going to happen, how can you plan for this, when they seem to change their minds all the time, they should say what they want, and let us counter their off, but no they want us to PAY UP first and argue later.
oh this is going to happen, and I still think we will come out with no deal and how do you get 27 people to agree, when they all want their own way?

hippy1952 · 31/07/2017 16:25

Don't be stupid.

Hufflepug · 31/07/2017 16:35

Matthew Parris article in full

The Conservatives are criminally incompetent

Even in the bad times I felt proud of my party but this scarcely believable Brexit shambles has left me deeply ashamed

If you’ve a moment, research “Mike the headless chicken” (April 20, 1945 to March 17, 1947). Mike passed away 70 years ago but had managed to live headless (sort of) for 18 months, staggering pointlessly around to the amazement and horror of spectators in many fairgrounds, before finally choking.

Returning to Britain on Thursday I had been wondering what our Conservative government now reminds me of, when a friend told me of Mike’s sad story.

Can this really be Britain? Or has my homecoming ferry re-routed itself to a Central American banana republic where the congreso nacional has packed up for the summer holidays, the foreign minister has gone cavorting in Australia, the stop-gap president has departed to walk in Switzerland, the hairy Marxist resistance leader has started wrestling his own comandantes and the lugubrious Don Felipe, minister of finance, is staging a slow-motion coup?

Humour, though, is no longer a refuge from the disgrace. What have we come to? Like some dark moon below the horizon, a rogue force is wrenching us from our orbit, and nobody knows what to do.

But if you think the purpose of this column is to lament that crazy Brexit decision, you are wrong. Brexit or no Brexit, I have a different focus. A more precise focus than the scattergun commentary which has interested itself in “Britain’s” embarrassment, “the government’s” incompetence, “Whitehall’s” ill-preparedness, “the prime minister’s” inadequacy, “Labour’s” disunity or even “Europe’s” aggressiveness.

There is a main culprit here, and it isn’t any of these candidates. Labour didn’t cause this mess. Whitehall didn’t frame the task, even if it is ill-equipped for its execution. Theresa May may not be up to the job but it’s a job into which she has been forced. And “the government”? The government is a collection of individuals. Where do these individuals come from? Who nominated them? Who keeps them in their jobs? Search for the key word in the following text.

The Brexit secretary is playing it by ear with no guide to the melody
We live in a parliamentary democracy in which voters elect representatives attached to parties. The party as an institution has form, and voice, and policies. The party chooses a leader. The winning party’s leader asks the monarch for authority to govern and if she is satisfied that the party can support its leader in commanding the Commons, she gives it. The leader then chooses every minister from the party’s ranks, and leads a cabinet drawn, too, from the party. And if the party loses confidence in its leader or government, it can, by withdrawing support, dismiss both.

The word that keeps appearing in this passage is hard to miss: an entity, a real thing, the thing that’s now in charge of Britain’s direction. It’s called a party. It’s the Conservative Party. Do the voters even begin to understand how this mess is entirely of the Conservative Party’s creation?

The Tories are turning Brexit into a humiliating shambles. They called a referendum when they didn’t have to, they accepted the result, they willed Brexit, they promised Brexit, and now they’re comprehensively failing to organise it. You can’t blame the voters, who quite reasonably assumed that the Tories would never have offered a referendum if they hadn’t thought leaving Europe could be arranged. The fingerprints for this crime of mismanagement are Tory fingerprints.

The coming years will be a permanent stain on my party’s reputation
Thirteen months since the referendum and the Conservatives still can’t decide even the broadest outline of the terms on which we hope to leave. The difference between a soft and a hard exit is greater than the difference between staying in and a soft exit, yet the prime minister is still insisting that government policy is for a hard exit, while the chancellor (in her absence) says the opposite.

Nobody really knows what the foreign secretary thinks and I doubt he knows himself. The Brexit secretary, meanwhile, seems to be trying to play it by ear, but with no guidance as to the melody at all. And the trade secretary seems recently to have reconciled himself to three (or, if the chancellor is to be believed, as many as four) further years without any job at all. Some ministers say we’ll be taking back control of immigration when we leave in 2019, others that we will not.

And almost everybody has started to talk of a “transitional” period after leaving, without any hint of a consensus on what we would be transitioning to.

Every Conservative MP bar Kenneth Clarke voted in February for the triggering of Article 50. It now appears they and their leader started the countdown to Britain’s expulsion without even the vaguest plan for what we’d be aiming to achieve, let alone realistically likely to achieve. Worse, they pulled the trigger knowing very well that “Brexit” still meant different things to different members of the party and its government, and there was no reason to hope that divergent aims were ever likely to converge.

I call this criminal: irresponsible to the point of culpable recklessness towards their country’s future. The Conservative Party just thought they’d give it a whirl and all but one of them voted for the adventure.

Even in bad times, even when we Tories messed up, I used to feel a pride in the party to which I owe so much. Often too slow, sometimes too rash, sometimes wrong, sometimes mildly corrupt, often missing the public mood, occasionally cowardly, it was still possible to trace through the party’s long history a line of worldly common sense, a distrust of extremism, and a deep sense of duty to the nation. There was a certain steadiness there. Has this deserted us? Do we yet understand, has it yet been born in on us, that it is we and we alone who have led the whole country into the predicament it now finds itself in?

How shall I look in the eye those householders through whose doors I’ve been dropping Tory leaflets all these years: years that will be seen as a permanent stain on the Conservative Party’s reputation?

The prime minister has gone away. “Ladybird, ladybird,” we might cry, “fly away home! Your house is on fire, your children are gone!” Except that we’re better off without her flapping around, spouting implausibilities. Perhaps reality in the shape of Philip Hammond may gradually bear down upon fantasy; perhaps forlorn hopes may steal silently away and various fools, while not repenting of their folly, allow it to slip their recollection.

I hope so. I left Spain feeling ashamed to be British. I return to England ashamed to be a Conservative.

OP posts:
Beebee7 · 31/07/2017 16:48

@Augustwashout

I would be careful taking that view too seriously. When you look at the vitriol spilling out at levers since the vote - Thickos, scum, " They have KILLED MY CHILDREN" Parents crying in play grounds telling their DC they will be kicked out of the UK, by the Leave RACISTS....etc etc etc...I think you will find, due to this - many leave voters keep their heads down and many say the safest thing in the face of Rabid Remainers.

If I could thank this and repost it a thousand times I would. 'rabid remainers' sums it up beautifully.

Upshot is, we are leaving, and we will be fine. The histrionics and hysteria around it are ridiculous.

In addition, in the eyes of some remainers, the leave voters cannot say anything right. I have seen many leave voters post perfectly decent and logical posts and arguments on many threads on here, and no matter what they say, they are jumped on by half a dozen rabid remainers!

cushioncovers · 31/07/2017 16:53

The Tories are turning Brexit into a humiliating shambles. They called a referendum when they didn’t have to, they accepted the result, they willed Brexit, they promised Brexit, and now they’re comprehensively failing to organise it. You can’t blame the voters, who quite reasonably assumed that the Tories would never have offered a referendum if they hadn’t thought leaving Europe could be arranged. The fingerprints for this crime of mismanagement are Tory fingerprints.

^^ this exactly

What the fuck were the tories playing at, to give the uk a referendum for something most of us had forgotten/didn't even realise was even in their manifesto. And then have absolutely no bloody idea how to move forward with the leave vote. It's a fucking disgrace.

MissionItsPossible · 31/07/2017 16:56

Brexit won as did Donald Trump as Did Conservative and most recently why Corbyn did better than expected because of the increasingly loud wailing by those on the extreme left as well as the extreme right. Most of us are actually centralist and just want to STFU and get on with things once a vote is over. I don't know what's happened these last couple of years (I don't want to blame it on the rise of social media but I do think it goes hand in hand) but we've turned into a very spoilt and stroppy, me-me-me-world and as a result there are more people that think their opinion is worth more. And so they tell people about this. Loudly. Alienating those on both sides to the point where people don't WANT to admit to voting for Brexit or voting for Trump. And most recently the situation was reversed and instead of the usual "Shy Tory" we had "Shy Labour" voters, those that were probably too embarrassed or not wanting anybody picking fights by admitting they were behind Corbyn. Screaming and shouting and denigrating people for their vote doesn't make them change it, but it'll certainly make them keep their mouths shut about it.

simon50 · 31/07/2017 17:08

Glass of port... Whilst we are on the subject of the NHS, I am concerned that the nurses that come here from overseas, may not have a good grasp of English or be as well trained as Brit nurses.
My logic for this is that the USA and OZ come here to recruit our nurses to work for them (which is one of many reasons for our shortage) but seem far less interested in recruiting overseas nurses. So I can only assume they don't consider them as good, otherwise these overseas nurses would themselves be going straight to the USA and OZ for a far better standard of living than we can offer them ?

KarmaNoMore · 31/07/2017 17:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lljkk · 31/07/2017 17:14

Another vote is only worthwhile if it would mean a Resounding Remain. And I mean Resounding. At least 65% for REMAIN. Anything else & the issue will fester... like it is now. Voting for Brexit meant 20+ yrs of this stress & upheaval related to Leaving. What a crap situation. :(

LaurieMarlow · 31/07/2017 17:20

I am concerned that the nurses that come here from overseas, may not have a good grasp of English or be as well trained as Brit nurses.

That may or may not be the case. But when they all fuck off, leaving us with huge shortages in the nhs, I think we'll be sorry we were so fussy, no?

hettie · 31/07/2017 17:31

See I wouldn't say I'm a rabid remainer....I don't think it's going to be fine though. I think it'll be quite crap for quite a long time.....I hope I'll personally weather the storm (I have some assets and a professional qualification that would allow me to work in Australia if it came to it) But I no longer care, I think we have to do this. Increasingly I think we need to know that we are no longer 'great britain' of empire and world war II winning rhetoric. That in fact we are just a country inextricably intertwined with global economic forces (like many other countries). I think until we really know and feel this we will always think we are better off alone... If I'm wrong fantastic... it'll all be milk and honey and money for the NHS... So I want it to to happen whatever the outcome...

MissionItsPossible · 31/07/2017 17:52

Another vote is only worthwhile if it would mean a Resounding Remain. And I mean Resounding. At least 65% for REMAIN

LOL A vote is only worthwhile if it gets the result you want? Hmm what if it was 80% to Leave, would it still be unresolved and need a worthwhile vote? Confused

Peregrina · 31/07/2017 19:19

the EU fish our waters more than we are allowed to,

Because Our Government chose to sell our quota to a few Dutch firms. Unlike Norway and Iceland, we don't have vast tracts of open Atlantic to fish in.

I would love a Leaver to tell me exactly which EU laws they are against, preferably not one we either sponsored ourselves or voted for, but one we really didn't want and voted against.

Peregrina · 31/07/2017 19:20

If the vote was 80% Leave then it could genuinely be said to be the will of the people. With a 52:48 split almost anyone else would have regarded that as more or less even. As would Farage, don't forget.

allegretto · 31/07/2017 19:27

I would love a Leaver to tell me exactly which EU laws they are against, preferably not one we either sponsored ourselves or voted for, but one we really didn't want and voted against.

This! I am so sick of hearing that the EU "made" us do something. It is so childish. We were part of the EU for decades. We drew up laws, we supported them and we hardly ever voted against them!

makeourfuture · 31/07/2017 19:37

There seems to be no plan at all. And they aren't being particularly transparent.

VulvalHeadMistress · 31/07/2017 19:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheDowagerCuntess · 31/07/2017 19:42

I don't know what leavers voted for on 23/6/2016 when there was no plan.

And over a year later, when there is still no plan, it's even less clear.

Most leavers seem to hate 'experts' and the 'elite', and yet were happy to utterly throw up their hands and say, 'I don't care that there is no plan - I'm leaving it to you to figure out, and I'll trust whatever you come up with wholeheartedly, even if I have to wait forever'.

I don't understand.

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