We're going to have to call a halt to Brexit aren't we?

[Hufflepug]

Lukewarm Remain voter here. Understand that the Government has to listen to 'the will of the people' and all that.

But for the love of God, now that it's clear what absolute economic suicide we're committing surely we've got to put a halt to it whilst the govt and the opposition work out what the fuck's going on!

AIBU

And the money we're going to lose from losing tax income, the banking industry, higher living expenses, investment..... does that not alone cancel out any benefits?

To answer the OP, IMO we absolutely should put a halt to Brexit. I think our current politicians are rubbish though, and I can't see a strong compelling enough person organising the large number of pro remain MPs. As for Corbyn and his blatantly pro Brexit stance, don't even get me started .

Can we have a detailed list of the benefits of leaving please.

I think that means a detailed list of actual benefits, not wishful thinking.
Answers which are fact. Some to counteract the problems that the Brexit vote have already thrown up, like the decline in the value of the £ or the haemorrhage of scientific staff and graduate recruitment schemes being put on hold.

Actual benefits like Fox's 'hold the front page' moment a few weeks back about trade deals with the US being signed and sealed on 24th July - which came and went, and all we heard about was chlorinated chicken.

OK we have heard that BMW is going to invest in electric cars - they might have done anyway without Brexit and we must obviously be glad that they are not pulling out. But let's hear about xxx bringing new investment to Britain. Let's hear about the sums being committed to the Cornish economy, not the "tough luck" Cornwall stories we have heard so far. We have also heard Gove tell us about allowing the Danes to fish in 'our' waters as a trade off for our lack of canning and processing facilities - so let's hear about the Government investment in canning and processing so that this trade off doesn't need to take place.

Oh yes, and let's have a good shake of the old money tree for the NHS - the Tories managed to find it when the DUP came knocking.

mummmy2017 For clarity, a benefit implies a better situation than one which currently exists, and to state one necessitates a fact to back it up i.e. to illustrate the difference between current state and future state.

Can you restate your list in the light of that scope?

On your comment "in 2 years time things will be known", I take it you are aware that a great deal is already known...the EU's position papers were both timely and crystal clear. As have been statements regarding the non-EU countries fraudulently touted by the UK government as being so eager to do free trade deals with the UK (e.g. Australia).

The harsh truth is that facts matter, because however much ignorance and propaganda abounds, it is the underlying facts (including our government's reputation as a bunch of thick liars) which are the determinants of the outcome of Brexit.

If a voter cannot factually substantiate their view of the benefits of Brexit, in the face of so much factual evidence implicating hardship for their children, then I would have to agree with the much-quoted words of Winston Churchill: "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

I'll spare you my thoughts regarding their parenting philosophy...

And a bonus quotation for you, seeing as it's a Friday: "Integrity is the lifeblood of democracy. Deceit is a poison in its veins", Ted Kennedy.

Facts safeguard democratic integrity. Without them, democracy does not exist (whether that label is misused or not).

Don't all rush at once with said list

I just don't think ardent remainers really get why we want to leave the EU. The benefits are that we will be out of the EU, its that simple, that's what we voted for. That is why remainers will never get the up side because they dont see them as such. So we need to just politely agree to disagree.

As for the country going to hell in a hand cart, I dont see any evidence that Brexit is doing that. Economies go up and down, Brown didn't abolish boom and bust (he just pushed up our deficit).

I get why you want to, I'm just less clear on how some of the things you reckon are going to happen, actually will. Control of borders, for a start. I totally understand people saying they just want to leave on principle and don't mind being poorer or whatever, that at least makes sense. It's the other claims.

they just want to leave on principle and don't mind being poorer
If we are poorer then it will be because we have so much debt, not because of Brexit.

how some of the things you reckon are going to happen
I dont know how some of these things will happen but there is a lot of things I don't know until after someone solves it and then explains how it was done. Humans are pretty good at problem solving, its not like its as hard as flying a man to the moon.

Brexiters really have brains on their side...

Brexiters really have brains on their side - seriously how many voters is that referring to? I think it speaks more to the intelligence of who said it.

Tbh it was in reference to your inane post.

Whichjob - House prices are definitely dropping, which some would think is a good think but if the housing market crashes so does everything else and how many of us are in recession proof jobs?

You have it the wrong way around. The economy is screwed because houses are overpriced by around 80% and all the money is being sucked into people paying huge mortgages and rents just to have a roof over their heads. Productivity is low and we have a massive (housing and tax credits) benefit bill because housing costs are too high. Housing is the key to it all. Reduce the costs and see much more money going into the economy as people will have more spare cash. At the moment it is all being sucked up by the banks. High house prices help no one and for every person that will suffer from negative equity is another person losing thousands of pounds that they have to pay in rent every month. Time for house prices to massively fall or to tax the hell out of unearned capital gains.

If we are poorer then it will be because we have so much debt, not because of Brexit.

I'd be interested to hear your basis for this. You're presumably aware we're going to lose certain jobs from the UK if we leave. Is your view that these will be replaced by others?

I dont know how some of these things will happen but there is a lot of things I don't know until after someone solves it and then explains how it was done. Humans are pretty good at problem solving, its not like its as hard as flying a man to the moon.

Mmm. Whereas I think a lot of us on the Remain side aren't willing to put that level of blind faith in something so yes, I think you're correct to say we're just not really understanding each other.

I do think, though, that Leave folks are missing a trick here. You may have won the vote but you very clearly haven't won the war, since we're not out yet and there's no guarantee we will be. And Leave doesn't have the support of the majority of the population. So for example, at this point in time, I might well be prepared to vote for a party or candidate promising not to honour the referendum result. There may well be enough of us to make it worthwhile for one or more politicians to do that, especially once the negotiations are over.

However, I'm still open to persuasion. I'd love to hear some concrete plans about what's likely to happen, what opportunities people have identified if we do leave. I might modify my behaviour accordingly.

Leave voters obviously don't have any obligation to try and persuade me and others, it's totally your call if you don't want to. It's just that you might have reason to regret it later on, given that we've not left yet and there's no reason to think it's inevitable. If I were a Leaver, I'd be doing my all to try and make it so that a majority of the population actually did support leaving. Just in case.

Ideology over evidence, just like Trump's fanbase. This is what Farage, Banks et al are counting on.

Looks to me like it's becoming a Pride thing now.

You know, well we are British and feisty and no matter what the consequences we will see this through. That will show those muppets in the EU..... Rule Brittania!

As to those who believe Brexit will be great, well fine you have your opinion and all that, but one liners like "we are leaving the EU, that's that, and it's great" holds no argument, no backup nothing. Just a statement of fact, not a whiff of anything positive as a result is there?

I really want those in favour of Brexit to actually point out where the positives are.

So far there is not much except the mantra of rhetoric. Rinse and repeat and sure enough we might believe it all tomorrow.

It is not looking like that to me anyway.

To be fair to fresh and mummy, they have both given the average brexiteers arguments which is you just have to sit back and hope: They admit they don't have all/any the answers but have faith that Great minds are working on it (not sure who they mean? David Davis presumably or the cs- who warned/resigned over it)

If that's not a good way to steer a country I don't know what is.

I haven't been noble to catch up at all but thought I should post this here. Looks like I will be paying from my pocket for the fantasy of the people who have generally paid all their mortgage away and benefited a lot from the property market in this country, making it next to impossible for their children to buy something to call their own.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40823237