We're going to have to call a halt to Brexit aren't we?

[Hufflepug]

Lukewarm Remain voter here. Understand that the Government has to listen to 'the will of the people' and all that.

But for the love of God, now that it's clear what absolute economic suicide we're committing surely we've got to put a halt to it whilst the govt and the opposition work out what the fuck's going on!

AIBU

But we'll just get through the next 4 years and then said voters will vote accordingly i.e not believe a word he says. A referendum isn't the same, there are huge consequences that can't be reversed. The truth is far more crucial( can't believe I just posted that).

Ironing - I think you make a good point there.

What I believe should have happened was that May should have insisted that really the country was pretty evenly divided and then started investigating options. I don't believe that it was politically impossible not to do so. Nor do I think that any PM needed to be bound by what their predecessor said - just because Cameron promised he would implement the result- it didn't mean it had to be implemented.

Because all we ever have is the outcome of an vote to go by, in all cases?

I can't believe that this requires explanation, but there you go.

I can't believe you're daft enough to think the outcome of the vote is the salient point here, but there you go.

The point is, this is a discussion about whether Brexit will or won't happen. Personally I have no idea, and anyone who cares to venture an opinion is a better man or woman than I.

However, it's a highly, highly significant point that there can't be assumed to be particular reserves of support from the population for leaving the EU, despite the 52% victory in the referendum. The reality is that it didn't get anything like majority support from the adult population now. Maryz specifically mentioned two groups, one who weren't arsed enough to vote and one who weren't allowed to, who as a bloc were very anti-Leave, and who in a number of cases are quite pissed off about their disenfranchisement and certainly can't be presumed to have any loyalty to an advisory referendum.

This means that if for whatever reason we don't leave, or attempts are made to go down this road, the groundswell of people who are actually going to be annoyed about that isn't necessarily going to be a majority of the population. Sure, there are Remainers who've changed their minds, or who haven't but who want the result honoured. There are also Leavers who've changed theirs.

The majority of our elected politicians currently are not sufficiently wedded to the idea of leaving the EU that they'd do it on principle. That much must be obvious. They'll do what they think will get them elected. The reality is that one referendum result is only part of this, however much you think it should be definitive. So the question becomes, will the possibility that the people will penalise them be sufficiently live to make them push for leaving. Not just now, but at every point before we do leave, including after negotiations.

This isn't me necessarily saying what I want to happen either, or think will happen. I really have no idea. We're in a time of political flux. But one thing I do know is that this is a highly complex picture, and the idea that all we have is the outcome of this one vote is extremely naïve.

should we recall the General Election on the basis that the youth vote directly affected the outcome?

a) Corbyn didn't win, so is not in Government, and what he promised isn't particularly relevant.

b) We will 'recall' the General Election either in 2022 or earlier if either May loses a vote of Confidence or just decides that she feels like holding another election and the rest of Parliament let her do so.
There are no plans yet to re run a referendum. At what stage does the mandate for change from the Referendum run out? Are we going to say that 20 years/40 years ago a slight majority wanted out of the EU and the electorate then must dictate what happens for future electorates?

The best analogy I ever heard was this:

You have seen a house you like. You look around and fall in love. It's perfect, it's in a good area everything seems right, you put in an offer it's accepted, happy days.

Then the banks valuation comes in at less than you've agreed. It's okay you think, I have a good deposit and I love it. Then the survey comes back and the house is a wreck. It's clear it will bankrupt you to make it liveable. Subsidence, roof, rotten beams, the works.

At what point do you admit defeat and withdraw from the sale? You decided to go for it, started the process, realise it was going to be too hard and expensive and had a rethink.

Wasn't it Theresa May who insisted that we have control of our borders?

TipTop, I'm not arguing about the result of the vote. I'm suggesting that the oft-repeated statement "the majority want Brexit" is factually incorrect. In fact little more than a quarter of adults living in the UK wanted Brexit at the time of the vote.

Yup. You said that more pithily than me!

Basically, we all know that the majority didn't actually come out and support Brexit, and there's no reason to think they do or would now. It's fine to say that shouldn't matter and that the referendum should be honoured anyway, that's a legitimate viewpoint if you're talking about matters of principle, but it doesn't actually mean that's what will happen.

I mean, of course it has the potential to be relevant if the majority of the population don't actually want Brexit (cue 80% GE comment now...). It's not even necessarily a Remainer point. I would expect sensible people within the Leave camp to be aware of it and factoring it into their planning. You can be totally opposed to the idea of ignoring the referendum result whilst still seeing the potential for it to happen.

Quote fail...

We already have control of our borders don't we?

And we can also limit the impact of EU citizens on social services, like Germany do, we just choose not to. Why? Because we already know they contribute more than they take so we never bothered to set up all the admin around putting that EU law in place.

Must. Not. Get. Sucked. Into. Arguing. With. Brexiters.

deep breaths....

you are entirely wrong in claiming that the economy wasn't already completely fucked before Brexit and would remain fucked regardless of the result

And this ladies and gentlemen is a prime example of a Leaver sticking their head in the sand and ignoring the evidence in front of them. Brexit has already had an extremely detrimental effect on the economy and we're still only at the starting blocks. I mean come on, even the high profile proponents of Brexit have given up pretending that we're going to be anything other than financially fucked. Hence all the Dunkirk analogies being trotted out in the last few weeks.

Basically, we all know that the majority didn't actually come out and support Brexit, and there's no reason to think they do or would now. It's fine to say that shouldn't matter and that the referendum should be honoured anyway, that's a legitimate viewpoint if you're talking about matters of principle, but it doesn't actually mean that's what will happen.

Of course its sound statecraft to consider the minority view - but can government reasonably prioritise the views of non-citizens over citizens? The former, of course, being almost 100% Remainers by way of self-preservation?

Please give me one example of one government that has ever done just this.

Scrump probably the most shocking thing I've read in recent months was the survey this week that older leave voters are quite happy for the economy to tank for Brexit. Them and their triple fucking lock pensions etc.

A year it was all oh yeah Brexits going to be all fucking roses and happy days, now they've changed their tune it's like "let's all rally together and get through this".

Fuck that - let's cancel it. We looked into it, can't be done without arse-fucking the economy, let's leave it and try and reform the EU from the inside.

Job done.

Fish, Maryz- you're forgetting fish.

Why are you asking about non citizens tiptop? The non Leave voting Brits alone are enough of a bloc in themselves. Incidentally, do be aware that EU nationals acquiring citizenship and planning to acquire citizenship pre March 2019 (ie applying for PR cards where they'd not previously bothered) have changed and will further change the composition of the electorate.

Someone tell Nigel

I remember dsis and I both rowing with my parents over this. Yes they will be fine, fab protected pension and investments. My dad even bought stacks of Euros knowing the pound would be crap after to set him up for the next few years of holidays. Financially he has the resources to not be that effected in the short time of fallout he will be around for.There was zilch thought for the grandchildren he loves dearly, grandchildren he won't see working through years of austerity he merrily voted for knowing he wouldn't be around to deal with it. He just didn't get it.The lack of foresight is just crap. Many older leavers are the same.

My kids are increasingly gutted about Brexit. The more they learn re what they've lost, the more angry they get. They were too young to vote. When will they get their say?

There's a piece by Andrew Adonis in today's Guardian that gives an idea of the scale of the task ahead. I quote:

"When ministers talk airily of a trade treaty with, for example, the US, red lights should flash immediately. It’s not just a case of whether or not we want chlorinated chicken. EU negotiations for a trade agreement with the US have been ongoing for four years, involving 15 rounds of negotiations so far – and there is still no agreement in sight. Thousands of pages of detailed texts on everything from tax to pharmaceuticals (and chickens) are going through dozens of drafts, involving hundreds of negotiators. And that is just one treaty. Britain has to negotiate more than 40 just to stand still. Within 20 months."

And guess what? Britain doesn't have expert trade negotiators because it hasn't needed them for the past 40 years. It's trying to recruit some from abroad, but not very successfully, so instead it's sending generalist civil servants on negotiation training courses. Let's see how well that works out, shall we?

Worth a read.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/04/britain-leave-single-market-trade-deal

That was to Londonista

OMG your arguing about a leg that has been cut off. it can't be replaced.
We are now talking about what to use in it's place.
Even the EU say we are leaving.
EEA is going to be a holding space if we use it not a long term thing.