To think a double masectomy for a 13 yr old girl is child abuse

[AssignedMentalAtBirth]

twitter.com/peepartist/status/890693730126188544

All the adults in this girl's life have failed her.

It's truly sickening

This is Texas, coming here soon

Tell you what random you do what you think is best and I will do the same. I don't need to be told how to 'gain allies', whatever that means. Who voted you gender critical campaign manager?

How did we get to the point where women have to argue against child abuse - and have their language policed while doing it?

Yes, DJ, this is why we are in this mess.

My language and self expression is not going to be policed

chameleon71

Statistically 100% of children on blockers will go on to cross sex hormones. If left alone, (ie no blockers), 80% become reconciled to their natal sex.

It's thought socially transitioning starts a train that's difficult to stop.

Judging by Jazz Jennings, I can also see how they are not given the full story.

Social contagion is very powerful also. Look at the pro ana sites, prevalence of self harming, etc.

It's thought socially transitioning starts a train that's difficult to stop

Does anyone know at what point things stop being "just doing what you like" and becomes this transitioning?

And who is it who decides there's more to it?

Is it the individual concerned or is it everyone else around them who has to label someone deviating from "normal" behaviour?

It takes quite a bit to bring me to tears. But this has done it

This isn’t even about the small percentage of people with true gender dysphoria. This, at its core, is driven by homophobia and misogyny.
It’s abhorrent and goes against everything we’ve fought so hard for over decades (LGB rights and women’s rights).

And yes, it is child abuse.

Does anyone know at what point things stop being "just doing what you like" and becomes this transitioning?

I think it is based on how you choose to identify. Many (all?) women on MN are trans according to the Stonewall definition, but few of us identify as trans.

Is it the individual concerned or is it everyone else around them who has to label someone deviating from "normal" behaviour?

I'd guess it depends a lot on the age of the individual? Eg a 4 year olds deviance from the norm would be noted by parents, whereas a 24 year old would notice this themselves?

I stupidly assumed this was about a child with a high cancer risk from the title. Fuck

This poor young girl has been failed. Shame on everyone who encouraged this abuse

The point is that having the hostile language in here is going to stop people discussing it.

You can fall over yourself to appease the trans, but unless you completely let go of rational thought, they will never be content.
Most people on here have realized that it is utterly and completely pointless to even try.

Read this article, written by one of your darling friends:
theestablishment.co/why-trans-activists-cant-trust-the-left-3bfa22928ddd

You will be surprised just what they claim constitues "transphobia". (Or you will agree with them, in which case all hope is lost)

Reasonable people know and admit that one cannot change sex, and are not offended when this is acknowledged.

I am not interested in talking to unreasonable people. They are too far down the rabbit hole for there to be any hope that they might see reason.

Rabid transactivists attack you for knowing that transpeople are the sex they actually are. That's it. Even if you use their preferred pronouns and all, if you admit that you actual know what reality is, they'll attack you.

I am not interested in talking to unreasonable people

This is rich coming from you.

On one hand I can't believe the painful procedures and the sacrifices and all the risks it involves would really be something someone woukd actively choose if it really was as simple as just saying "screw you" to people and wearing what you like and doing what you like.

On the other I don't even know what feeling female is supposed to feel like as the only times I really find myself really being aware of my sex/gender (sorry not clued up on correct usage sincere apologies for any offence caused) is when it's obvious. Like on your period or using public toilets or when actively discriminated against because of it. Trouser rules at school and the default assumptions 're jobs and sex.

Sorry im.probably not explaining very well.

It's taken til adult hood really to be fully aware to what being female entails and the restrictions it seems to bring

These children can't possibly know any of it and to be allowed to actively opt into or out of through such drastic means..it just can't be informed consent

Is it the individual concerned or is it everyone else around them who has to label someone deviating from "normal" behaviour?

Everyone around them, obviously. Without any other people around, how would you even know what "normal" is and that your behaviour isn't it?

By now, it is pretty common that, despite all their babbling of "you are what you feel you are", transactivists tell women to get themselves to a doctor and take testosterone if said women dare to have short hair and not use make-up.

And before that, well, perhaps no one outright told people they must be trans, but gender non-conforming women did get the "oh, you look like a man" treatment pretty regularly. (And while I don't have personal experience of it, the "oh, your hair is so long, you look like a girl" young men got for having long hair is familiar)

"someone in the US whose daughter had a double mastectomy at 17... was very troubled, threatened suicide etc."

In that situation, I would get DD admitted to s psychiatric institution. No way in hell would I consent to her breasts being cut off. WTF

This is horrifying. What happens to these children if, when they become adults, they realise that, this is not what they want; can see a lot of potential here for future mental illness and suicide.

Can't claim to understand the whole process, and I suspect that the parents, children and doctors involved don't either, not in the long term. But surely, if these children's bodies are blocked from developing at pre-pubety they will stay prepubescent; sterile and lacking adult sexual desires and feelings.

Sounds like the worst punishment imaginable for them, thought up by the government of some ghastly Dystopian society. Far from being for the benefit of the children, it sounds to me like the government that's encouraging it is saying, 'here we have a person who is unsure of their gender, and possibly gay, lets keep them unable to breed'.

On the other I don't even know what feeling female is supposed to feel like

I was a very skinny adolescent who was flat chested, hated having my period and was deeply into sic-fi and fantasy. Which apparently would been enough to transition me. I hated being a teenage- it was a grim and difficult time. And I wouldn't have wanted any decision I made then to haunt me now.

But if we don't even allow children this age to have a freaking TATTOO- how can we allow them to have mutilating surgery and dangerous drugs?

random79

Forget pronoun use for the moment, it's too contentious.

You do agree that transing children is wrong, correct?

Can you explain why? In the context of the trans-ideology.

The reason I ask is because I can't tell whether you are supportive of trans-people individually, or you accept the ideology.

The ideology accept and promote the transition of children. What is the part of the ideology that you find unacceptable, that leads you to find the transition of children unacceptable?

It's not a trick question.

I genuinely can't understand how you can find a child having a double mastectomy wrong, until you find out she's trans and then it's not quite as wrong. Because the ideology disagrees.

@Vestal

I'm not trans, I don't really care about trans rights as they don't affect me and I don't think I actually directly know anybody who is transexual.

I feel that an attempt at wrangling language slightly for politeness is not the huge affront some feel it is, and might actually mean that you get opinions in here that aren't the usual anti-trans people.

As I seem very much in a minority of one, I will bow out rather than continue a flamewar - I'm happy to respond to specific points, but I think we've exhausted any benefit of this, probably several pages ago.

Everyone around them, obviously. Without any other people around, how would you even know what "normal" is and that your behaviour isn't it?

I mean it seems so obvious put like that. So how are these kids given these courses of treatment that will result in lifelong sacrifices 're fertility and health and normal development?

What format does the assessment take that this obvious point is missed?

Actually, this is on a par with FGM in my book.

@Datun

(as it's a specific question)

I think that it takes time to know who you truly are, and the midst of being a teenager isn't the best place to make final and permanent decisions. If somebody decides they're gay then it doesn't really matter if a bit later they decide they're not. If somebody gets a tattoo or more permanent body modifications however, I think that it's a significant change and hard to undo.

That's not saying that body modifications are the wrong thing for people, it's saying that frankly I think that 13 is too young to make those choices.

Oh, and I don't think that a child having a double masectomy is right or having serious genital changes, I think I've mentioned that repeatedly. I just think that the issue can be discussed without the trans hatred.

Random
Politeness is all well and good. But this is child abuse. It's too fucking late for politeness. Can't you see that?

@AssignedMentalAtBirth

I don't like it or agree with it and I would argue against it here.

But I'd rather argue against it with people who don't make their utter disgust for people who are different from them so obvious.