To ask what policy your Uni has on women's spaces?

[SerfTerf]

Those of you who have recent work or study experience.

Would you mind listing institution names and their policies?

NC if you need to of course.

VestalVirgin

Did you read the PP?

The objection that was implied was that her daughter would have be at some kind of risk had there been a trans woman on the same floor in the residence.

If that's deemed to be a risk, than surely the PP would have an issue with lesbians sharing a floor with her daughter, and seeing her daughter walk to the showers in a towel, no?

Um no.....lesbians don't tend to have penises

If that's deemed to be a risk, than surely the PP would have an issue with lesbians sharing a floor with her daughter, and seeing her daughter walk to the showers in a towel, no?

Lesbians are women. I assume you are talking of actual, female lesbians. You know, the kind who have vulvas, not penises.

The kind who are women, you know, that half of the human species that commits oh, perhaps 10 percent of crimes, as compared to men's 90%. Or was it 5% to 95%?

And who has female bodies, so is not likely to obsess about female bodies in the way people who do not have female bodies (we used to call them men) do.

The only kind of real women I wouldn't want to have to share a floor with is women with gender identities. Those are fucking scary. But they probably wouldn't go anywhere that's explicitly for women, so there's no danger there.

Wilderness the risks we refer to around having self ID trans women are a world away from any concerns about a lesbian looking at you. It's not at all about sexual desire, but about power and violence! You can't really be that obtuse, so this is another way to suggest that anyone expressing gender critical views is a bigot, yes?

OK, I'm really dim. What does cis denote?

If you are into gender identification it means someone who feels they have the same gender identity as their sex. For example a woman who thinks of themselves as feminine and is comfortable with all the stereotypes normally associated with women.

Sometimes it is used more neutrally as anyone who isn't trans. But then you have to define trans too, which is now quite difficult as it has become a wide umbrella term, not just those who have dysphoria about their sexed body, or even those who are uncomfortable with living a life constrained by the gender stereotypes assigned to their sexed body.

Um no.....lesbians don't tend to have penises

Yeah, because lesbians aren't male. It is kinda the definition of lesbian that there's zero penis involved.

Misogynist men are afraid of gay men because they fear gay men might treat them the way they themselves treat women.

However, I am perfectly fine with lesbians treating me the way I treat men.

Cardibach

A transwoman is a transwoman in my mind; I appreciate your view on this may differ. I'm interested to know if there's any cases in the UK where a transwoman has self identified and the committed a rape in University accomodation?

So, where should transwomen stay at University then? You can't really suggest they should stay in male-only residences, and neither should they be segregated.

You can't really suggest they should stay in male-only residences

Why not? Male is a sex. It is not "masculine only residences", it is "male only residences".

The Stonewall definition of trans for example probably includes all gender critical feminists. which is a bit ironic as they are at the same time pretty much defined as the enemy of all trans people.

I worry about my soon to be going to university children and their peers. Especially if they are lesbians as they seem to be being thrown under the bus. Either told that they are really men in denial and should be taking damaging testosterone and thinking about surgery of their healthy bodies. Or that their sexual preferences are deviant and objectionable and they should be having sex with transwomen.

It's very very wrong, but if they struggle with any of these pressures they can look forward to at best being laughed at by people like Loop, and at worst being threatened and abused. How can this in any way be thought of as progressive?

Why can't they stay in male only accommodation?

God I feel like I have to spell this out in words of one syllable...

Male - human being with penis
Female - human being without penis

"Identifying" as anything else (be it a woman or a badger) does not change this biological.fact.

It is also a fact that men (human beings with penises) are responsible for the vast majority of violence against women (human beings without penises).

So why should a female have no choice about whether to share intimate space with a man (a human being with a penis)?

Oh and my son is going to be sharing a room in his first year. With another male student obviously, it would be massively inappropriate if his room mate was female.

Not sure what my old uni currently does on campus as haven't been up there for a year or two. However, the students union run a nightclub in town. A couple if years ago they made all the loos in there unisex (by popular demand apparently). Shortly afterwards, a female student was raped and seriously assaulted by a man in what had been the ladies loos but was now open to all. He wasn't trans or posing as trans or anything before anyone rolls their eyes - but it seriously worried many people that this was now possible. Of course one could argue that a man could have forced his way into the ladies and raped someone beforehand anyway, but surely women would have felt more comfortable either confronting him or getting staff to remove him before the loos were unisex? I believe they went back to men's and ladies loos, with a new unisex loo installed for anyone who wasn't comfortable using the others.

Ah. Your definition of a female and mine are different; I'm quite happy to include those who identify and transition to female.

I'd forgotten how many members mumsnet like to shit all over one of the most vulnerable groups in our society. Threads like this always remind me why suicide rates in transpeople are sky high. I seriously hope none of your children are transgender.

Time to hide the thread.

but surely women would have felt more comfortable either confronting him or getting staff to remove him before the loos were unisex?

Obviously. If you have sex segregated facilities, and a man walks into the ladies', you don't have to wonder about his motivations for a moment; you know he is up to no good and rush to the help of the women in there.

Why did a woman have to be raped for them to see reason?

And how many women will have to be raped before this insanity is finally stopped for good, on a national level?

Suicide rates of transgender people are sky high? Because female is a biological fact?

Can you link that information?

I'd forgotten how many members mumsnet like to shit all over one of the most vulnerable groups in our society.

WildernessWhale , I do wonder how you can forget that, if you yourself just love to shit on lesbians, the one most vulnerable and oppressed group in our society, by siding with people who call lesbians' boundaries "cotton ceiling", and call it "exclusion" that lesbians don't want penises in their vaginas.

I do wonder, really, how you could ever forget what kind of person you yourself are, and how much you hate women and girls, and especially lesbians.

One would think you'd be constantly aware of that, all the while you spew homophobic nonsense and claim that lesbians are like men.

How does stating a biological fact shit on anyone?

Many pp have said that it's not about excluding transgender women. They can call themselves whatever they want and should be excepted and respected in the same way as anyone else. But what can't happen is the appropriation of intimate/sporting/medical female (by which I mean human beings with vulvas) space.

but if they have surgery to remove there penis (which alot do) does that mean they are allowed in female residences because they dont have the dreaded penis anymore......

VestalVirgin

Never shitted on any lesbians :-) Please go and read my post again, I simply said that if a woman was worried about her daughter sharing a halls residence with transwoman because they had a penis but may or may not be attracted to females, then she is suggesting that lesbian women, who are sexually attracted to females would also be viewed as risk in her eyes.

Absolutely did not shit on any lesbians for pointing that out.

I've never claimed that lesbians are like men either.

Um, you just did it again, surely?

but if they have surgery to remove there penis (which alot do)

As far as I am aware, most don't....

Your sex is written in every cell in your body, however you modify your body will in no way impact on what sex you are.

A man without a penis is still biologically a male.

If that's deemed to be a risk, than surely the PP would have an issue with lesbians sharing a floor with her daughter, and seeing her daughter walk to the showers in a towel, no?

Wilderness, what studies there are show that transwomen commit the same level of crime, including violent crime, as men. Women's rate of committing violent crime is much lower.

I don't want young, vulnerable women to share intimate facilities if they don't want to with people with male bodies, whether those people identify as men or as transwomen, because people with male bodies are statistically proven to be more of a risk to women than people with female bodies. It's that simple.

Also, nobody should be forced to see penis if they don't want to.