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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask what policy your Uni has on women's spaces?

646 replies

SerfTerf · 26/07/2017 20:31

Those of you who have recent work or study experience.

Would you mind listing institution names and their policies?

NC if you need to of course.

OP posts:
VestalVirgin · 27/07/2017 14:33

obviously I had not read Vestal's post when i worte and posted mine re fire. How horrid that anyone would say that vestal

Don't feel bad! The "die in a fire" doesn't really bother me, it is what misogynists I don't know personally say online.

The one person I knew personally and had poured a lot of emotional energy in because I had considered "her" (a female, non-binary identfied misogynist) a friend only told me to die, no fire mentioned, so that doesn't trigger unpleasant memories.

Smile
Camomila · 27/07/2017 14:36

Waves @DSHathaway. Yup, Same place...I was one year ahead (2007-10) I do remember the gender neutral loo not being very popular and there just being a massive extra queue for the F loo instead.

Founders library just had the individual cubicles on the stairs outside I think?

confoozed · 27/07/2017 14:36

And loops Why does inclusion have to mean to become identical? (even if that identicalness is nothing more than fiction).

Why can we not be inclusive of rights to safety, dignity and privacy, based on difference?

Are the Paralympics exclusionary because they have different categories not just one per sport? Or inclusionary because they have as many different categories as possible to accomodate as many people as possible and attempt to give a reasonably level playing field to groups of people who are very different from each other?

Excluding isn't even inherently bad. I'm going to exclude bleach from a list of things that are safe to drink because science says so. Good idea eh?!

cardibach · 27/07/2017 14:39

Loops this But the reason it was funny when the person in class said that is because being a TERF is seen as being so bad, like being racist or homophobic, it's not like we sit around talking about how awful and funny feminists who exclude trans people are, we view gender criticism as 'funny' because it comes across as so offensive, not because it's actually funny? is exactly what I mean when I say you think you are right and everyone else is wrong!
Also, I don't exclude trans people. I want them to be included as they are, to be valued as they are, rather than pretending they are something they are not - which suggests that what they are is not enough. Comparing it to racism is like saying the only way to be not-racist is to deny that anyone's skin is a different colour, saying no, we're all white here. That would be horrifically offensive. Why is the same not true about trans people?

Loopsdefruits · 27/07/2017 14:48

milady some gun enthusiasts are wrong, yes. I absolutely think that the NRA people who held rallies near Columbine days after the massacre are not just morally inferior, they're repugnant. Of course, some people just have a gun for hunting, or even 'self defence' but would also be quite happy with more gun control.

It's First, I don't think that gender identity is a mental disorder, I did mention my feelings on gender dysphoria earlier in the thread. However, I don't think forcing someone with anorexia to eat when they are not in a place to actually accept that intervention actually does anything to solve their mental health problem. Treatment for anorexia is more than just getting someone to eat, it's often not even about food or being 'fat' at the root. If someone with anorexia, prior to their illness, was vegetarian then I wouldn't force them to eat meat just because they were dangerously thin. Their vegetarianism is part of their sense of self, the anorexia is part of their mental illness.

Assassinated Absolutely, tbh I already feel old at 26 in a class full of 18/19 year olds.

Pooch I mean, his speaking led to an increase in racist, anti-most things sentiment that the left did not anticipate and that I think lost them the election. And that sentiment is still making things actively dangerous for minority groups, with an increase in hate crimes, discrimination and anti-equality legislation at both a state and national level. That's shocking and totally unacceptable.

Ok, your question, if you were in our class and told us (or the seminar leader, or someone else of course that you felt comfortable talking to) then we would stop using the language that you were hurt by, apologise, and probably try to understand where you are coming from. Because that's what we do when that thing comes up. You'd probably also be offered the option of changing groups if we had made you feel very unsafe, not that we would want you to do that, just let you make that choice if you wanted.

Vestal I am sorry people have been so awful to you, that is not appropriate no matter how much you disagree. Again, I wouldn't use TERF to yell at someone in that manner, and while I admit to laughing at the TERF joke in class (which, thinking about it, was really bad to laugh at) I wouldn't want to make anyone uncomfortable or unhappy.

sleigh they are allowed to feel unsafe, and if there's a large enough group that feels unsafe they can campaign to not feel unsafe. The policies are the way they are because students voted on them.

pooch it depends what her position was? If she was a women's officer that was unwilling to be fair to transwomen, then as they form part of the group she was supposed to represent it would be fair for them to ask for her to not represent them. They would likely have also had support from other people too. If she was LGBT officer again, there would appear to be a conflict of interest.

I do just want to add that a BIG reason for no-platfoming someone is to do with security concerns, if you allow someone to speak and the students are angry about it you could face difficulties keeping both speaker and students safe. Many times speakers will be postponed, or asked to speak off campus as a compromise.

sleighbellend · 27/07/2017 14:52

Loops, thanks for your answer. I don't mean allowed in the context of university campuses though, I suppose I mean more 'allowed' in terms of what you and your friends/coursemates etc believe in - it's ok for you to feel unsafe because of a speaker, but women who feel at risk due to males in traditionally female-only spaces (female prisons, rape counselling units, etc) are all raging bigots who need to take a long hard look at themselves.

worridmum · 27/07/2017 14:55

btw how do you police female or male toliets do you have a genital inspection policy?

Surgery these days often make it near impossible to tell the difference at a glance.

VestalVirgin · 27/07/2017 14:57

In actual reality, feminists do not exclude trans people from anything.

Transmen are welcome in feminist female spaces. (As of yet. Might change because many of them are so misogynist) Transwomen are welcome in feminist spaces that are not females-only.

What do feminists consistently exclude trans people from?

Lesbians exclude transwomen's penises from their panties. That's it. That's the core of this perceived "oppression". The "cotton ceiling".

Claiming that one is excluded from something that one could very easily enter if one acknowledged material reality is like claiming to be excluded from a building because one tries to walk through the wall, not through the open door.

If transmen choose to exclude themselves from female spaces, that is their choice. It doesn't mean someone else is excluding them.
But it is not about transmen, ever, is it? They are female, so don't count.

It is all about males being able to have access to all women, always.

PoochSmooch · 27/07/2017 14:58

loops, thank you for answering.

We're still miles apart but I am beginning to feel like I'm kicking a puppy here, so all I'm going to lay off.

VestalVirgin · 27/07/2017 15:04

Surgery these days often make it near impossible to tell the difference at a glance.

Well, yes, that might be a problem with males who have their faces feminized but don't have surgery on their penises. But not with all. Cannot remember the name, but there was this photo of a very famous "transgirl" whose penis was quite visible through the skirt. Girls got thrown out of their school for not wanting to share a changing room with him, if I recall correctly.

But since most males who want to invade women's spaces do not bother to have any surgery at all, I don't think it is a problem in everyday life.

There are some very few males who look androgynous by nature, but that happens at random, so relatively few males who want to invade women's spaces will be blessed with feminine looks.

confoozed · 27/07/2017 15:07

Same here pooch. Thank you loops for replying :)

Loopsdefruits · 27/07/2017 15:08

Pooch (and everyone actually) it's ok, I don't feel like a kicked puppy? Well not because of this discussion anyway. I am gonna go though because I have 9 essays to write in 3 weeks, otherwise this is all moot and I won't be back at uni in september at all lol feel free to shout at me if I come back!

PoochSmooch · 27/07/2017 15:15

That would Lila Perry, vestal.

Faithless · 27/07/2017 15:20

Please could someone educate me on how vocal/ mobilised F-M transgendered people are compared to M-F and, if they are sufficiently organised, whether they have the same degree of influence on institutions such as the SU? The debate seems to focus on M-F issues and I'm curious.

To answer the OP's question I work at a large, Northern RG Uni and have seen gendered and unisex disabled toilets but have no idea if they have an official policy on the matter.

VestalVirgin · 27/07/2017 15:26

Vestal I am sorry people have been so awful to you, that is not appropriate no matter how much you disagree. Again, I wouldn't use TERF to yell at someone in that manner

But you would still use it as description, despite knowing it is a slur?

Try and distance yourself from everyone who, if a woman said to their faces that she does not believe in gender, would scream "terf" at her and tell her to die, call her scum, et cetera.
Then see how many trans allies you can still count among your friends.

Making a guess here, I don't think it will be many.

I see no distancing from the violence taking place. The person who behaved that way towards me is still part of the group we both used to be part of, I am not.

Trans people behave like they are Tinkerbell from Peter Pan; they say it is literal violence if someone stands in front of them and says "I don't believe that your gender identity changes your actual sex".

It can only be violence if they are indeed like Tinkerbell and wither and die if someone doesn't believe in their gender identity.

If they are (and I assume they are, because there's no reason to assume otherwise) regular human beings, then they are not at all threatened by someone disbelieving their gender identity.

In fact, if their gender identity existed in the real world, not even their gender identity would be threatend by someone disbelieving it.

But! If gender identity is just an opinion that they hold about themselves - then their feeling "threatened" by someone challenging it, makes perfect sense. Opinions can cease to exist in a specific individual if others disagree with them.

WildernessWhale · 27/07/2017 15:28

Imperial's policy on Transgender Staff

www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/administration-and-support-services/equality/public/trans/Trans-Staff-Policy.pdf

Wider information for Transgender Staff and Students including the gender-neutral facilities.

www.imperial.ac.uk/equality/equality-and-you/trans-staff/

SerfTerf · 27/07/2017 15:32

Thanks wilderness

OP posts:
sticklebrix · 27/07/2017 16:13

Loops thank you for sticking around. It's been an eye-opening and sometimes chilling discussion IMO. We're not going to agree on this but I respect your perseverance.

notoneofyou · 27/07/2017 16:13

I'm a bit late to this thread and don't have time to read it all, but could you do a freedom of information request?

SerfTerf · 27/07/2017 16:42

Yes that's a possibility @notoneofyou

OP posts:
Evalina · 27/07/2017 16:49

Sorry haven't read the whole thread, but if it's useful information, my DD was in Halls at the University of Bristol a couple of years ago. They had male and female floors in the halls, and each floor had a shared bath, shower and washroom facilities for that floor. DD and her friends would go to and from their rooms to the showers in pjs/dressing gowns as the whole floor was female only.

Not sure how this will work in the future though.

WildernessWhale · 27/07/2017 17:10

@Evalina - I'm curious. Were the floors separated into heterosexuals and homosexuals too?

VestalVirgin · 27/07/2017 17:22

I'm curious. Were the floors separated into heterosexuals and homosexuals too?

Why would anyone do that?

There's no observable difference between the bodies of heterosexual and homosexual women, so a separation would not only be pointless, but also impossible to enforce.

HamletsSister · 27/07/2017 17:24

cardi people who view their own personal right to have a mini-gun shop in their houses above the right of primary school children to go to school without the risk of being murdered are bad people. They additionally also have bad arguments.

This stuck out from Loop

So, those who advocate their own right to sell guns above the rights of children to be protected from guns are bad.

What about those who advocate their own right to be seen as a woman over the rights of those who want to go about their business without the risk of being murdered, attacked or confronted by men who have decided to declare themselves female?

venusinscorpio · 27/07/2017 17:30

There are some bizarre ideas on this thread. If people think that the majority of people subscribe to the same beliefs as queer theory gender studies identity politics echo chambers, they are obtuse, deluded or both.

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