Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Gender Self Identity Law coming! MNQH and Mumsnetters: Time to pick a side

999 replies

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 23/07/2017 10:09

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40692782

This is going to happen unless we speak out now.

Other thread in feminist chat

Fence sitters everywhere, please read, be aware of what is coming

From the Times:
Tories promote the right to choose your own sex
Transgender reforms for birth certificates
Adults will be able to change their gender legally without a doctor’s diagnosis under government plans that will transform British society.
Men will be able to identify themselves as women — and women as men — and have their birth certificates altered to record their new gender.
Ministers plan to tear up the existing rules that mean people have to live for two years as their desired gender before they can officially change sex.
A consultation on the Gender Recognition Bill, to be published in the autumn, will also include proposals to scrap the requirement that people get a formal medical diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” before applying to switch gender.
Critics warned that allowing people in effect to “self-identify” as a member of the opposite sex, while maintaining the anatomy of their birth gender, would unleash a firestorm of legal cases over access to women-only hospital wards, prisons, lavatories, changing rooms and competitive sports.
Justine Greening, the minister for women and equalities, called the move to give more rights to transgender people the third great “step forward” after equality for women and the legalisation of same-sex marriage in 2013.
The announcement is timed to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1967. Greening said ministers want to “streamline and demedicalise” gender change to make it easier for people to switch their identity legally.
In future people are expected to be required only to make a statutory declaration that they intend to live in the acquired gender until death — in line with arrangements already adopted in Ireland.
The consultation will address whether those whose gender is “non-binary” should also be able to define themselves as “X” on their birth certificates.
A separate consultation in Scotland will go further than England and Wales by recommending that “non-binary” people should be able to define themselves as “X” on passports. It will also propose a cut in the age at which people can change their gender from 18 to 16.
The plans will be controversial. Prominent feminists including Germaine Greer and Dame Jenni Murray, the presenter of Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour, have questioned whether men can become women even if they undergo a sex-change operation.
Stephanie Davies-Arai of Transgender Trend, a parents’ group, said: “This has huge implications for women. There will be legal cases. The most worrying thing is if any man can identify as a woman with no tests and gain access to spaces where women might be getting undressed or feel vulnerable — like women’s hospital wards, refuges and rape crisis centres — women will just stop going to these facilities.”
Self-identifying was recommended by a parliamentary committee last year chaired by the former cabinet minister Maria Miller and it has the backing of Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn.
Greening also announced the government will make it easier for gay men to give blood. At the moment men who have had sexual contact with other men are barred from donating for 12 months. That will be reduced to three months.

Ministers will launch a national survey of Britain’s estimated 1.5m LGBT people to help inform policy.
The education department has also announced £3m will be spent on “anti-homophobic and transphobic programmes”. Schools, including faith schools, will be required to include LGBT issues in relationships and sex education.
Greening, who is in a relationship with a woman, said: “This government is committed to building an inclusive society that works for everyone, no matter what their gender or sexuality.
“We will build on the significant progress we have made over the past 50 years, tackling some of the historic prejudices that still persist in our laws and giving LGBT people a real say on the issues affecting them.”
Ruth Hunt, chief executive of Stonewall, the lobbying organisation, welcomed the plans. “We need a simple process which isn’t medicalised, intrusive or demeaning,” she said.
The move will put the government on a collision course with some religious groups. Simon Calvert of the Christian Institute said: “It is worrying when the leaders of the main political parties are so out of touch with the concerns of ordinary people.
“Allowing men to self-identify as female without any medical diagnosis allows them to invade the privacy of women and girls.
“It’s time for a reality check. Some things can’t be changed. May and Corbyn want to elevate the principle of ‘gender self-declaration’. But it is wrong, it is anti-scientific and it is dangerous.”
A source who is close to Greening acknowledged that the proposed changes could be problematic. “That’s why we are going to have a consultation, so we can examine all the implications,” the source said.
A Scottish government spokeswoman said it hopes to have “new arrangements in place by 2020”.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
user1498911589 · 23/07/2017 11:28

Thanks you Flavia. That's disgusting 😟

SmileEachDay · 23/07/2017 11:28

This 'reform' would not be happening had it not been driven by men. Men who 'feel' like women, but who have the full advantage of their privileged status.

If the sexes were equal in terms of pay
If women did not have to deal with sexist attitudes every day
If catcalls in the street weren't a thing
If women were not the victims in sexual crime nearly every time
If rape was not something that happens
If there was not a victim blaming culture in cases of sexual crime
If domestic violence victims were not almost always women
If women and men internationally were seen as equal
If rape was not used as a war crime by men in many countries
If science supported pink/blue brains
If women/girls were not made vulnerable because of men and need protecting from them, sometimes
If testosterone didn't make you faster, stronger

Yeah. When all that shit gets sorted out, I have no issue with welcoming men with open arms. Hell, I'll offer them the use of my pink fountain pen to sign the paperwork.

Until then? No. Fucking. Way.

wrenika · 23/07/2017 11:28

I really have to hope that MN represents some crazy little subsect of humanity, because the transphobia present is horrendous.

You do realise that as of right now, your precious DD could have changed in a women's changing room that a trans-woman, with a penis shock horror changing in the next cubicle. She could have used a ladies toilet that a trans-woman, with a penis shock horror is also using. That's not some new change.
I don't understand why so many MN users fail to process simple facts, but you can be a legally recognised female and still have a penis. So therefore, you can use female spaces, and still have a penis. This isn't up for debate. It is legal fact.

I had a trans friend in school. I saw the stress she went through. She tried to kill herself.

Coincidentally, I have now have an acquaintance through a hobby who is a trans-woman, and do I feel threated by her being in female spaces with me...no, of course I don't. She just wants to live her life.
I'd be pretty confident to say that many of the people wringing their hands here will have had a trans-woman in their female segregated space at some point before and not even realised. My hobby acquaintance wouldn't raise a second look from anyone, until she speaks to you and the details click.

There are complexities to be dealt with, like the sports issue. That needs to be discussed and dealt with, but the right to transition and access places appropriate to your identified gender is a basic right.

As for the seemed implication that all these trans-women with penis are going to fly to the top jobs...don't your tiny brains grasp that they are a marginalised and discriminated against group! That's not going to change, judging by the opinions on here...

glenthebattleostrich · 23/07/2017 11:28

Here's an idea for the right on idiots. How about we get rid of gender all together? It's a socially constructed pile of steaming shit used to damage both men and women (look MRA mysogynistic arsehats) I managed to squeeze men in there to.

This policy is mysogynistic, lesbophobic and islamophobic.

It will damage all women and I can not understand why any woman or anyone who cares about women can support it.

andintothefire · 23/07/2017 11:29

I agree with the points about biological sex vs gender. However, I think there are still situations where gender is very important, hence my post above about statistical analysis of situations where women are discriminated against because of gender (rather than merely sex).

An 18 year old man has not been told all of his life to be "nice" and "pretty" and to focus on creative subjects. He has not had to endure jokes about women drivers and dumb blondes and squeamish women jumping on chairs at the sight of a mouse. So it is not a victory for women (as a gender) when that 18 year old male self-identifies as a woman and rises to the top of a profession. A transgender woman is not defying gender stereotypes by succeeding because she has not had to endure the subtle barriers and discrimination that somebody growing up as a woman experiences every single day of her childhood and teen years.

dementedma · 23/07/2017 11:30

totally agree with flipping this and allowing females calling themselves males to challenge primogeniture, titles, men's clubs and every other stucture which favours males.

Many female soldiers I know were pissed off when the first "female" soldier serving on the front line was announced. She had done all her training as a male, all of the physical and stamina tests required to pass the various criteria for the role were done with a male body, giving him/her a huge advantage over biological women.
My 15 year old son who is a lazy lump and does no exercise is already taller, wider and much much stronger that his gym bunny elder sisters. He was born with the physical factors for this to happen. In any tests of strength, he wins. If he decided tomorrow to change his name from Joseph to Josephine and compete in the womens' arm wrestling championships (if this exists!), he would win easily - or be beaten by other men who are stronger than him.
This is madness.

glenthebattleostrich · 23/07/2017 11:31

wrenika, you do realise that my DAD could currently ask that person to leave if they were making her uncomfortable.

You can't have a penis and be a woman. That is a biological fact.

MorrisZapp · 23/07/2017 11:32

Ooh Islamophobic. You've got something there. How does the Guardian feel about Muslim women being excluded from public life because their religion expects them not to share intimate space with men?

I think we can work with this.

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 23/07/2017 11:33

Twitter users: can we agree on a hashtag?

These already exist:

#sexnotgender
#biologicalsexmatters

Any other ideas, It might be good to reference the bill /consultation

I'm not on FB but I will join under another name for this. Which pages are good?

OP posts:
FirstShinyRobe · 23/07/2017 11:34

It was too late by 2004.

andintothefire · 23/07/2017 11:34

(Which is not to deny that a transgender person hasn't experienced different discrimination and terrible experiences. But they are very different issues and I worry about this trend of hierarchies of discrimination. Painting women / white women / middle class white women as comparatively privileged and therefore not entitled to complain really concerns me because it denies the very real issues that every woman still faces regardless of her "privilege" in other areas.)

BahHumbygge · 23/07/2017 11:35

FFS, it's not about transwomen themselves being predatory, I'm sure they're generally lovely as individuals, the ones I've met have been. It's the fact that this type of legislation gives all predatory male sex offenders the coattails to enter female only space. Crucial difference, please note.

SpartacusSaiman · 23/07/2017 11:36

So therefore, you can use female spaces, and still have a penis. This isn't up for debate. It is legal fact.

Toilets and changing rooms are segrated on sex. Not gender. Why dont people whose sex in male, but wear a dress, want to use male facilities?

SmileEachDay · 23/07/2017 11:37

There are complexities to be dealt with, like the sports issue. That needs to be discussed and dealt with, but the right to transition and access places appropriate to your identified gender is a basic right.

Even female refuges?
Even rape suites, dealing with traumatised women?
Even MH wards, where a horrifying proportion of the women there have suffered sexual assault, abuse or rape?

Really?

And at which point in the transition does this become appropriate? If this goes through, it will be as soon as X decided they are a woman.

dementedma · 23/07/2017 11:39

wrenika you are missing the point. Your hobby friend wouldn't merit a second glance because she is a transitioned transwoman. What we are talking about here are men who can decide one day that they identify as women and then have to do nothing more about it to be allowed access to womens sport, changing rooms, hospital wards, refuges etc. Fully bearded, dressed as men - maybe with a group of their male friends also being "women" for the day - in the communal showers???

SmileEachDay · 23/07/2017 11:40

#biologynotIdentity

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest · 23/07/2017 11:41

I personally don't understand why gate keeping is seen as such a horrific thing - surely it is sensible that people go to their doctor to get medication considering the incredibly high levels of co-morbidity in the transgender population.
Furthermore why is two years living in your chosen gender (whatever the hell that means) so burdensome that we must switch from that to instant self declaration?

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 23/07/2017 11:41

To all the FEMALE genderdefenders posting here, please stop being a traitor to your own sex

OP posts:
SpartacusSaiman · 23/07/2017 11:42

but the right to transition andaccess places appropriate to your identified gender is a basic right.

Why do refuges exist? Rape suites?

Because women have fought and campaigned for them. If trans people want their own safe spaces. Let them fight for them, set them up, fundraise, get government funding.

The solution isnt to tell peolle using these services 'you must be ok with us using your space'.

fakenamefornow · 23/07/2017 11:42

I've got one! I've thought of an advantage women would get identifying as male. If you're muslim you could go to male prayers.

Bejazzled · 23/07/2017 11:45

Say goodbye to 'safe spaces'

It really does seem that we are all equal in this country - just some are more equal then others

I too am on the side of women

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 23/07/2017 11:45

Muslim men aren't going to be happy either

OP posts:
gingerpusscat · 23/07/2017 11:46

I don't see what the issue of legal protection of trans individuals against discrimination has to do with the aggressive assertion of transactivists that these individuals are 'really real' women (or men), in defiance of their biological sex. The former is a no brainer. The latter smacks of extreme male entitlement.

ALittleBitOfButter · 23/07/2017 11:48

There are complexities to be dealt with, like the sports issue. That needs to be discussed and dealt with

Wrenika is a transphobe too.

wrenika · 23/07/2017 11:48

dementedma: she has only just started hormones - she's at the beginning of her transition. MN would call her a man...and would go on calling her a man.

Ostrich: Your daughter wouldn't know...unless she was peeping into a changing room, which is highly inappropriate! If she suspected a person was trans, the individual has no requirement to answer her question. They don't need to disclose their status to her. A trans-woman, who has fulfilled the requirements to get the certificate and change her birth certificate, is legally a female. So in sex-segregated areas, she is perfectly allowed to be in the womens' space.

Swipe left for the next trending thread