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Gender Self Identity Law coming! MNQH and Mumsnetters: Time to pick a side

999 replies

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 23/07/2017 10:09

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40692782

This is going to happen unless we speak out now.

Other thread in feminist chat

Fence sitters everywhere, please read, be aware of what is coming

From the Times:
Tories promote the right to choose your own sex
Transgender reforms for birth certificates
Adults will be able to change their gender legally without a doctor’s diagnosis under government plans that will transform British society.
Men will be able to identify themselves as women — and women as men — and have their birth certificates altered to record their new gender.
Ministers plan to tear up the existing rules that mean people have to live for two years as their desired gender before they can officially change sex.
A consultation on the Gender Recognition Bill, to be published in the autumn, will also include proposals to scrap the requirement that people get a formal medical diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” before applying to switch gender.
Critics warned that allowing people in effect to “self-identify” as a member of the opposite sex, while maintaining the anatomy of their birth gender, would unleash a firestorm of legal cases over access to women-only hospital wards, prisons, lavatories, changing rooms and competitive sports.
Justine Greening, the minister for women and equalities, called the move to give more rights to transgender people the third great “step forward” after equality for women and the legalisation of same-sex marriage in 2013.
The announcement is timed to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1967. Greening said ministers want to “streamline and demedicalise” gender change to make it easier for people to switch their identity legally.
In future people are expected to be required only to make a statutory declaration that they intend to live in the acquired gender until death — in line with arrangements already adopted in Ireland.
The consultation will address whether those whose gender is “non-binary” should also be able to define themselves as “X” on their birth certificates.
A separate consultation in Scotland will go further than England and Wales by recommending that “non-binary” people should be able to define themselves as “X” on passports. It will also propose a cut in the age at which people can change their gender from 18 to 16.
The plans will be controversial. Prominent feminists including Germaine Greer and Dame Jenni Murray, the presenter of Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour, have questioned whether men can become women even if they undergo a sex-change operation.
Stephanie Davies-Arai of Transgender Trend, a parents’ group, said: “This has huge implications for women. There will be legal cases. The most worrying thing is if any man can identify as a woman with no tests and gain access to spaces where women might be getting undressed or feel vulnerable — like women’s hospital wards, refuges and rape crisis centres — women will just stop going to these facilities.”
Self-identifying was recommended by a parliamentary committee last year chaired by the former cabinet minister Maria Miller and it has the backing of Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn.
Greening also announced the government will make it easier for gay men to give blood. At the moment men who have had sexual contact with other men are barred from donating for 12 months. That will be reduced to three months.

Ministers will launch a national survey of Britain’s estimated 1.5m LGBT people to help inform policy.
The education department has also announced £3m will be spent on “anti-homophobic and transphobic programmes”. Schools, including faith schools, will be required to include LGBT issues in relationships and sex education.
Greening, who is in a relationship with a woman, said: “This government is committed to building an inclusive society that works for everyone, no matter what their gender or sexuality.
“We will build on the significant progress we have made over the past 50 years, tackling some of the historic prejudices that still persist in our laws and giving LGBT people a real say on the issues affecting them.”
Ruth Hunt, chief executive of Stonewall, the lobbying organisation, welcomed the plans. “We need a simple process which isn’t medicalised, intrusive or demeaning,” she said.
The move will put the government on a collision course with some religious groups. Simon Calvert of the Christian Institute said: “It is worrying when the leaders of the main political parties are so out of touch with the concerns of ordinary people.
“Allowing men to self-identify as female without any medical diagnosis allows them to invade the privacy of women and girls.
“It’s time for a reality check. Some things can’t be changed. May and Corbyn want to elevate the principle of ‘gender self-declaration’. But it is wrong, it is anti-scientific and it is dangerous.”
A source who is close to Greening acknowledged that the proposed changes could be problematic. “That’s why we are going to have a consultation, so we can examine all the implications,” the source said.
A Scottish government spokeswoman said it hopes to have “new arrangements in place by 2020”.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
AssignedMentalAtBirth · 23/07/2017 11:03

Also, why are you so obsessed with penises?

I assume you have one Buffy

OP posts:
M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 23/07/2017 11:04

I fully support the right of people to dress how they like, call themselves what they like, and 99% of the time do whatever job they like or live where-ever they like without harrassment because they have a penis and like wearing a dress, or a vagina and like wearing a chest binder.

But 1% of the time -women's prisons, women's spaces where they are naked and vulnerable, women's shelters and rape crisis centres - people with penises should not be in these spaces or taking jobs in those places.

And people with penises should never play women's sport. Because it is not and can never be fair or safe. This individual is playing a contact sport against women, and the bloody article is all fawning about how they just want to play without discrimination - how about fairness towards the women on the opposing team who're going to be tackled - Simona is a whole head taller than their team mates.

isupposeitsverynice · 23/07/2017 11:04

I'll drop the penis obsession when men stop using them as a weapon against women.

LadyinCement · 23/07/2017 11:04

Ian Huntley (Soham murders) is apparently now "identifying" as a woman and requesting a transfer to a women's prison...

It's not the genuine male to women sex change individuals I am concerned about. I know one (and see a few others about) and she is a completely upstanding person. It is those who will use this law to gain access to currently prohibited areas. Would you ever go in a public lavatory again if a man could quite legitimately walk in and know that you would be in the wrong if you challenged him - or even looked at him in a scared or outraged manner?

FlaviaAlbia · 23/07/2017 11:05

user1498911589

At the minute, changing your legal gender is possible, but there are steps you have to follow. Such as living as your intended gender for 2 years and being diagnosed with gender dismorphia.

This proposed change would mean that someone could make a statement saying they're now a woman and legally, they would be. So they can go into women's changing rooms, prisons, sports, hosptial wards, refuges and women would not be able to object because legally they'd be the same.

Accurate statistics are invaluable, but men commit more violent crimes than women so we'll see stats change, violent crime and sex crime among women rise.

Medical stats will be problematic, how can you accurately describe the occurrence of sex related illness such as ovarian cancer if you're not sure that the group in question all has ovaries?

I don't see how this will help people with gender dismorphia when it'll just be a delight to the kind of men who will abuse it.

formerbabe · 23/07/2017 11:05

I would like to see the removal of segregation by gender ultimately

Gender or sex?
Do you understand the difference?

PlymouthMaid1 · 23/07/2017 11:06

This is terrible. So few people even know it is happening. The people I have mentioned this topic to probably think I am crazy as they are so unaware. I dont know what we can do to protect womens rights as nobody is listening.

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 23/07/2017 11:07

"Why are you so obsessed with penises?"

Because penises are used to commit rape. Can you explain to me how it is safe to put a convicted rapist with a penis into a women's prison just because the owner of said penis says they are a woman?

fakenamefornow · 23/07/2017 11:08

What will this 'self identification' actually entail? Signing a form? Going to a registrar and making a declaration? If that's all it involves, if this law goes through I might register as male. The only thing is, it won't actually give me any advantage. The 18% pay rise will only be for actual XY men with penises, any male only spaces would just be dangerous for me to enter. Can anyone think of any apart from showing how ridiculous this would be?

Men, on the other hand self identifying as female, could then complete at championship level against actual females. Sex offenders (vast majority XY) will then have free access to spaces with undressed women and girls.

Besides, if I'm honest, I'm not overly worried about men accessing female spaces, it's the utter madness of this. Sex is a biological fact, why are we ignoring that just so we can keep an offensive stereotype?

Rumandraisin1 · 23/07/2017 11:09

You're not a a sausage - so you want to see the abolition of sex segregation for sport? Do you understand the physical differences between men and women's bodies?

Wallahibillahitallahi · 23/07/2017 11:11

I'm not OBSESSED with penises. 95% of violent crimes are carried out by penis-owners. 99% of sexual assaults against vagina owners are carried out by penis owners. I want to keep spaces free of penises where me and my vagina owning offspring can feel safe whilst changing or whatever. I would like my vagina owning teenage daughter to be able to change with other teenagers who have the same bodies. I would like her to have space to deal with her periods and sanitary towels with people who understand. I would like the practice of FGM to be stopped so that my nieces do not have to experience the same as my MIL and SOLd and I would like them to have spaces free of people with penises to discuss that

And I would like vagina owners to have a fair chance at competitive sports

Jammydodger81 · 23/07/2017 11:13

I shed a tear when I saw this story this morning. I had an idea it was coming but hoped it wouldn't.

How can they do this to us? We need to do something.

jellyfrizz · 23/07/2017 11:14

This gender bill would be an amazing step forward for trans rights.

How so? It shouldn't make a difference how someone identifies or presents and whether or not that matches society's ideas of whether that matches the s x on their birth cert.

Surely to be properly trans inclusive we should be looking at accepting everyone as they are rather than encouraging people to deny their past and biology by changing their birth certs?

I can't see how this is a win for trans rights.

SerfTerf · 23/07/2017 11:14

The only thing is, it won't actually give me any advantage.

No, but it could create administrative chaos. I'm absolutely serious about doing so in the event this passes.

Wallahibillahitallahi · 23/07/2017 11:15

There has never been segregation by gender. Segregation has always been based on sex for reasons of dignity, privacy, safety and fairness

Give me one good reason for segregation based on gender

toomuchtooold · 23/07/2017 11:16

I'm with you guys. I have transgender friends, I get that things are hard for them, but I don't think any of them would want a law whose main effect is going to be to tear down every legal protection of women as an oppressed group. It is about penises, and it's about uteruses - doesn't fucking matter what body I think I should have been born in, I was born in one with a uterus - and every time it looked like it might work (employment rights, equal pay) or not work (shitty-ass miscarriage care and fertility treatment) or work when I didn't want it to (abortion, contraception) I found out what a small fraction of a full human being our society counts me as.

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2017 11:18

Plus we need to highlight the primogeniture law, which says that women identifying as men as not entitled to claim titles, (male) inheritances or sit on the House of Lords

We need to oppose that exception to self-identification and genderism. Very loudly and angrily. If the males see their privilege threatened, they may finally decide to oppose that shit. And as males hold power, we might yet be able to prevent the idiocy.

BeyondDrinksAndKnowsThings · 23/07/2017 11:18

YoureNotASausage.... what if I identify as a sausage, eh?
(Sorry, couldn't resist Blush )

ForalltheSaints · 23/07/2017 11:18

I am a man (in the interests of transparency in this debate), biologically. I have never had the wish to be, or identify as a woman.

I agree the process should be made easier, but not in the way proposed. If you have had the medical procedures for gender reassignment, you should not have to undergo any further medical examination. However, in places such as women's prisons and others where women are naked for routine matters such as showering, then those who still have male genitalia should not be there.

I do not want women to be put off exercise, sport, or have even more body issues than many have in this country, because of the fear that one of the people in certain spaces is a man pretending to be a woman to perve.

andintothefire · 23/07/2017 11:19

How can there be any meaningful statistics on issues that are STILL of vital importance to women (e.g. gender pay gap, women in science / tech, women on boards or reaching higher levels of the judiciary, sexual assault) if people born and socialised as a man are included in those statistics just because they now self-identify as a woman?

I don't understand how politicians aren't concerned about this issue. Do they think the numbers will be so small as to be statistically insignificant? The problem is that in many areas they really won't be.

It is such a sad, worrying situation where there is a very difficult line to tread between supporting people who identify as a particular gender and ensuring that we continue to recognise the many ways in which women are mistreated because of their gender / experience being socialised as a particular gender all their lives.

IdentifiesAsASquirrel · 23/07/2017 11:22

Fancied a change

BahHumbygge · 23/07/2017 11:22

Indeed... what purpose does it serve to know what someone's gender is? why do people need treated differently according to gender?

...they don't, unless you're a sexist misogynist who believes in the regressive concept of inferior lady brains.

Biological sex on the other hand is vitally important... for medical care, physiological differences in sporting potential, reproduction of the species, safety from forced sexual encounters and harassment, safety from physical violence and seeking refuge from it. All these are based on BIOLOGICAL SEX, not CULTURAL GENDER.

The idea that a predatory male can just decree by personal fiat he is now female and can now access any female only space is simply horrifying. The unintended consequences are unthinkable... but have already been happening. Voyeurism in gender neutral showers at U of Toronto, Christopher Hambrook etc. But our voices of alarm are never listened to as mere women.

Transwomen need to widen the bandwidth of maleness, not invade female space - both at a conceptual and physical level. The idea that men who display softer gentler 'frillier' natures and feminine presentation styles cannot be men because it's not becoming, is right out of the Alpha male macho misogynous rule book. Regressive politics dressed up at progressivism.

Lurkedforever1 · 23/07/2017 11:23

If they are limiting opinion to LGBT, can't those of us who aren't either of the first 3 simply identify as the last to get our opinions heard?

Especially if we could organise ourselves so that we all bombarded services on the same day with our newly discovered gender feelings.

However it's not as though there is a national register for lesbian and bi women so that's an option too for anyone who doesn't fancy an en masse stampede to demand support with our new identities as transmen.

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2017 11:23

Surely to be properly trans inclusive we should be looking at accepting everyone as they are rather than encouraging people to deny their past and biology by changing their birth certs?

Depends on what you mean by trans inclusive. People with body dysphoria have been able to get surgery for years and years. They have everything they need to be happy.

This new trans movement is all about males getting to invade women's spaces, and women getting to identify as exceptional and better than us lowly "cis" women by declaring themselves nonbinary or transmen.
And THAT they could not do in a world without social gender roles. They would just be normal people of the female or male sex. But they want to be special.

Atenco · 23/07/2017 11:26

This is Orwellian madness

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