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Gender Self Identity Law coming! MNQH and Mumsnetters: Time to pick a side

999 replies

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 23/07/2017 10:09

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40692782

This is going to happen unless we speak out now.

Other thread in feminist chat

Fence sitters everywhere, please read, be aware of what is coming

From the Times:
Tories promote the right to choose your own sex
Transgender reforms for birth certificates
Adults will be able to change their gender legally without a doctor’s diagnosis under government plans that will transform British society.
Men will be able to identify themselves as women — and women as men — and have their birth certificates altered to record their new gender.
Ministers plan to tear up the existing rules that mean people have to live for two years as their desired gender before they can officially change sex.
A consultation on the Gender Recognition Bill, to be published in the autumn, will also include proposals to scrap the requirement that people get a formal medical diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” before applying to switch gender.
Critics warned that allowing people in effect to “self-identify” as a member of the opposite sex, while maintaining the anatomy of their birth gender, would unleash a firestorm of legal cases over access to women-only hospital wards, prisons, lavatories, changing rooms and competitive sports.
Justine Greening, the minister for women and equalities, called the move to give more rights to transgender people the third great “step forward” after equality for women and the legalisation of same-sex marriage in 2013.
The announcement is timed to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1967. Greening said ministers want to “streamline and demedicalise” gender change to make it easier for people to switch their identity legally.
In future people are expected to be required only to make a statutory declaration that they intend to live in the acquired gender until death — in line with arrangements already adopted in Ireland.
The consultation will address whether those whose gender is “non-binary” should also be able to define themselves as “X” on their birth certificates.
A separate consultation in Scotland will go further than England and Wales by recommending that “non-binary” people should be able to define themselves as “X” on passports. It will also propose a cut in the age at which people can change their gender from 18 to 16.
The plans will be controversial. Prominent feminists including Germaine Greer and Dame Jenni Murray, the presenter of Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour, have questioned whether men can become women even if they undergo a sex-change operation.
Stephanie Davies-Arai of Transgender Trend, a parents’ group, said: “This has huge implications for women. There will be legal cases. The most worrying thing is if any man can identify as a woman with no tests and gain access to spaces where women might be getting undressed or feel vulnerable — like women’s hospital wards, refuges and rape crisis centres — women will just stop going to these facilities.”
Self-identifying was recommended by a parliamentary committee last year chaired by the former cabinet minister Maria Miller and it has the backing of Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn.
Greening also announced the government will make it easier for gay men to give blood. At the moment men who have had sexual contact with other men are barred from donating for 12 months. That will be reduced to three months.

Ministers will launch a national survey of Britain’s estimated 1.5m LGBT people to help inform policy.
The education department has also announced £3m will be spent on “anti-homophobic and transphobic programmes”. Schools, including faith schools, will be required to include LGBT issues in relationships and sex education.
Greening, who is in a relationship with a woman, said: “This government is committed to building an inclusive society that works for everyone, no matter what their gender or sexuality.
“We will build on the significant progress we have made over the past 50 years, tackling some of the historic prejudices that still persist in our laws and giving LGBT people a real say on the issues affecting them.”
Ruth Hunt, chief executive of Stonewall, the lobbying organisation, welcomed the plans. “We need a simple process which isn’t medicalised, intrusive or demeaning,” she said.
The move will put the government on a collision course with some religious groups. Simon Calvert of the Christian Institute said: “It is worrying when the leaders of the main political parties are so out of touch with the concerns of ordinary people.
“Allowing men to self-identify as female without any medical diagnosis allows them to invade the privacy of women and girls.
“It’s time for a reality check. Some things can’t be changed. May and Corbyn want to elevate the principle of ‘gender self-declaration’. But it is wrong, it is anti-scientific and it is dangerous.”
A source who is close to Greening acknowledged that the proposed changes could be problematic. “That’s why we are going to have a consultation, so we can examine all the implications,” the source said.
A Scottish government spokeswoman said it hopes to have “new arrangements in place by 2020”.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
FirstShinyRobe · 24/07/2017 22:35

It was the ECHR that led to the GRA 2004.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodwin_v_United_Kingdom

SylviaPoe · 24/07/2017 22:39

Zebbie, is it not the case that the legal protection is in place once the person has informed an HCP? People are protected throughout the process, not just upon its completion.

dinosaursandtea · 24/07/2017 22:43

I'm on the side of women and girls - ALL women and girls. Whether you're cis or trans, everyone has a right to their own gender identity. God, some of you are vile.

StatelessPrincess · 24/07/2017 22:46

everyone has a right to their own gender identity
But everybody already does and not one person on this thread has disputed that, it's not what the threads about, have you actually read it?

SylviaPoe · 24/07/2017 22:47

What happens if we leave the ECHR?

Would the legal challenge then be based on international human rights for women?

cardibach · 24/07/2017 22:47

I'm on the side of science, dinosaurs. Sex is a biological fact. Gender is a construct which doesn't really exist as an objective thing - it differs from society to society and over time. I'd agree, anyone should be able to dress and live how they want. I don't think that trumps science. I also don't think that makes me vile.
What I'd your definition of woman? Girl?
Do you want female sport over run with billogical men so biological women can't possibly win?
Do you think Ian Huntley should be moved to a female prison because he now says he's a woman!

cardibach · 24/07/2017 22:48

Excuse typos. Hope it's clear.

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 24/07/2017 22:48

Please explain then how supporting a "woman" like Lianne (formerly Ian) Huntley being transferred to a women's prison supports the women already imprisoned there.

Explain how a transwoman taking a women's national record in weightlifting and a place on their country's olympic squad supports the women who've spent a lifetime training to get to the top of their sport.

Explain how supporting a transwoman to fight for the right for employment in a women-only rape crisis centre supports the women who are rape survivors who need counselling without being triggered by being confronted by someone with male physiology in their safe space.

I won't hold my breath, though, because I'm betting you're a "plopper" (shits on a thread then runs).

fakenamefornow · 24/07/2017 22:49

I've changed my mind about the use of the word 'cis'. I think women should all adopt it. We need something to distinguish us from transwomen, the trans community have given us this label, we should run with it. I would bet money if this happened the trans lobby would not be happy because they are trying to insist there is no difference between women and transwomen.

SylviaPoe · 24/07/2017 22:51

Most people have still never heard the word cis though. It would just be jargon to them.

BeyondDrinksAndKnowsThings · 24/07/2017 22:53

Then we get onto UN declaration of human rights, which again has freedom of thought/religion (article 18) and opinion (a 19)

Anlaf · 24/07/2017 22:54

I will dump this here as I've jsut read it and it relates to the ECHR - or at least a UK judge's judgement in 2009: a male prisoner was demanding to be moved to a women's prison under Art 8 of ECHR

The claimant was seeking gender reassignment surgery; however, the gender identity clinic treating her would not approve her gender reassignment surgery until she had spent a period living “in role” as a woman in a female prison.

The decision to retain the claimant in the male prison barred her ability to qualify for surgery which interfered with her personal autonomy in a manner which went beyond that which imprisonment was intended to do. His lordship concluded that the interference with the claimant’s autonomy was a significant and a personal one.

This is what this prisoner did, whilst out of prison on licence following a manslaughter sentence
"A" attacked a shop assistant, forcing her into a back room, tied her up with a suspender belt and tried to rape her.

Her legal team said the attempted rape was closely linked to her obsession with becoming a woman and her intense frustration at the authorities' refusal to help her qualify for full gender reassignment surgery.

BeyondDrinksAndKnowsThings · 24/07/2017 22:55

Surely in ECHR and UN legislation, gender-ism is a religious belief (it's certainly not a scientific one!) and so women should be protected by their right not to partake in that religion?

SylviaPoe · 24/07/2017 22:56

Beyonddrinks, there are other human rights laws that are specific to people whose sex is female though. Those laws are not written as being about gender identity.

BeyondDrinksAndKnowsThings · 24/07/2017 22:58

I was sure there were "women's" ones, but couldn't find them in my quick google. I'm far from a law expert, just a google expert Grin

SylviaPoe · 24/07/2017 22:58

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just thinking about the international rights of women (by sex) and if they protect us in instances like these.

Certainly it's an international human right to not be placed in a prison with males.

Anlaf · 24/07/2017 22:58

^ that prisoner was ordered to be moved to a women's prison. Not being able to be like a woman "caused" him to attempt to rape that shop assistant, but apparently the risk to female inmates was insufficiently interesting to be included in the summaries i could find

Couldn't see full judgement on google, wd be interested to see if there was any risk assessed to female prisoners (+ post release to women in general)

BeyondDrinksAndKnowsThings · 24/07/2017 23:00

"international human right to not be placed in a prison with males"
That's the particular one I was thinking of, I remember it being discussed when the Green Party/WEP were campaigning for that violent human being to be moved to the female estate

StatelessPrincess · 24/07/2017 23:01

Her legal team said the attempted rape was closely linked to her obsession with becoming a woman and her intense frustration at the authorities' refusal to help her qualify for full gender reassignment surgery
How the fuck do they sleep at night

TheQuestingVole · 24/07/2017 23:08

Brexit doesn't entail leaving the European Convention on Human Rights, as it has nothing to do with the EU - but if we did, it would remove the only means of challenging primary legislation. Our courts cannot review primary legislation - as they can in the US - as Parliament is sovereign in our system.

However firstshiny's comment suggests that, as I suspected, the ECHR would be unlikely in any case to provide grounds to challenge such legislation on the basis of unfairness to women.

sooperdooper · 24/07/2017 23:09

I've changed my mind about the use of the word 'cis'. I think women should all adopt it. We need something to distinguish us from transwomen, the trans community have given us this label, we should run with it. I would bet money if this happened the trans lobby would not be happy because they are trying to insist there is no difference between women and transwomen.

No, I refuse to adopt cis, female adults are women and that's the only description that's needed

I don't want to be labelled by the trans community, who gave them the right to label me? Just no

BeyondDrinksAndKnowsThings · 24/07/2017 23:13

Rights of women factsheet from Amnesty
www.amnestyusa.org/files/pdfs/womens_human_rights_fact_sheet.pdf

CEDAW (1979)
www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/cedaw/text/econvention.htm#intro

Declaration on the Elimination of Violence against Women (1993)
www.un.org/documents/ga/res/48/a48r104.htm

Battery is dying so will have to read each properly in the morning

Smellbellina · 24/07/2017 23:14

MNHQ as women and a business will make the decision on how to face this issue (or not) according to what they perceive as being in their best interests.

As should we all.

I can not condemn MN for not wanting to be seen on the "wrong side" remember the reaction to Jenni Murray? Dr Ken Zucker?
It is entirely understandable that MN might not want to say, well anything, right now as the threat to them is so high in the short term.

The threat to us all in the long term, is greater. I do not want to raise my head above the parapet, but I know that I must. In the immediate future I suppose (I hope!) I have less to loose than MNHQ.

We can not rely on businesses, politicians and the like to fight this for us. We need to start ourselves. Maybe then, they will be able to join us.

This isn't a fight of women v the LGBTQ community. This is about people who believe in respect for all, people who don't want anyone to be bullied and threatened into silence. People who believe women and trans women are not the same, but equal in terms of their need and experiences to be acknowledged.

This is not women Vs trans women, the TA are not the representatives of the trans community. They are the loudest and most aggressive.

Women shouldn't be denied their right to be acknowledged as women, our experiences are our own. The same is true of trans women. To strip them of "trans" is to deny them their own experiences, and silence ours.

Evil triumphs when good men (or women) do nothing.

People only do nothing when under duress or miscomprehension.

SylviaPoe · 24/07/2017 23:16

'Our courts cannot review primary legislation - as they can in the US - as Parliament is sovereign in our system.'

So is us being signatories to a range of UN conventions is totally pointless then? Are there no international courts that can help us access our human rights?

BeyondDrinksAndKnowsThings · 24/07/2017 23:19

Great post smell. Bedtime for me now, I imagine this will be carried over into a second thread by the morning?