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Gender Self Identity Law coming! MNQH and Mumsnetters: Time to pick a side

999 replies

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 23/07/2017 10:09

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40692782

This is going to happen unless we speak out now.

Other thread in feminist chat

Fence sitters everywhere, please read, be aware of what is coming

From the Times:
Tories promote the right to choose your own sex
Transgender reforms for birth certificates
Adults will be able to change their gender legally without a doctor’s diagnosis under government plans that will transform British society.
Men will be able to identify themselves as women — and women as men — and have their birth certificates altered to record their new gender.
Ministers plan to tear up the existing rules that mean people have to live for two years as their desired gender before they can officially change sex.
A consultation on the Gender Recognition Bill, to be published in the autumn, will also include proposals to scrap the requirement that people get a formal medical diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” before applying to switch gender.
Critics warned that allowing people in effect to “self-identify” as a member of the opposite sex, while maintaining the anatomy of their birth gender, would unleash a firestorm of legal cases over access to women-only hospital wards, prisons, lavatories, changing rooms and competitive sports.
Justine Greening, the minister for women and equalities, called the move to give more rights to transgender people the third great “step forward” after equality for women and the legalisation of same-sex marriage in 2013.
The announcement is timed to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1967. Greening said ministers want to “streamline and demedicalise” gender change to make it easier for people to switch their identity legally.
In future people are expected to be required only to make a statutory declaration that they intend to live in the acquired gender until death — in line with arrangements already adopted in Ireland.
The consultation will address whether those whose gender is “non-binary” should also be able to define themselves as “X” on their birth certificates.
A separate consultation in Scotland will go further than England and Wales by recommending that “non-binary” people should be able to define themselves as “X” on passports. It will also propose a cut in the age at which people can change their gender from 18 to 16.
The plans will be controversial. Prominent feminists including Germaine Greer and Dame Jenni Murray, the presenter of Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour, have questioned whether men can become women even if they undergo a sex-change operation.
Stephanie Davies-Arai of Transgender Trend, a parents’ group, said: “This has huge implications for women. There will be legal cases. The most worrying thing is if any man can identify as a woman with no tests and gain access to spaces where women might be getting undressed or feel vulnerable — like women’s hospital wards, refuges and rape crisis centres — women will just stop going to these facilities.”
Self-identifying was recommended by a parliamentary committee last year chaired by the former cabinet minister Maria Miller and it has the backing of Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn.
Greening also announced the government will make it easier for gay men to give blood. At the moment men who have had sexual contact with other men are barred from donating for 12 months. That will be reduced to three months.

Ministers will launch a national survey of Britain’s estimated 1.5m LGBT people to help inform policy.
The education department has also announced £3m will be spent on “anti-homophobic and transphobic programmes”. Schools, including faith schools, will be required to include LGBT issues in relationships and sex education.
Greening, who is in a relationship with a woman, said: “This government is committed to building an inclusive society that works for everyone, no matter what their gender or sexuality.
“We will build on the significant progress we have made over the past 50 years, tackling some of the historic prejudices that still persist in our laws and giving LGBT people a real say on the issues affecting them.”
Ruth Hunt, chief executive of Stonewall, the lobbying organisation, welcomed the plans. “We need a simple process which isn’t medicalised, intrusive or demeaning,” she said.
The move will put the government on a collision course with some religious groups. Simon Calvert of the Christian Institute said: “It is worrying when the leaders of the main political parties are so out of touch with the concerns of ordinary people.
“Allowing men to self-identify as female without any medical diagnosis allows them to invade the privacy of women and girls.
“It’s time for a reality check. Some things can’t be changed. May and Corbyn want to elevate the principle of ‘gender self-declaration’. But it is wrong, it is anti-scientific and it is dangerous.”
A source who is close to Greening acknowledged that the proposed changes could be problematic. “That’s why we are going to have a consultation, so we can examine all the implications,” the source said.
A Scottish government spokeswoman said it hopes to have “new arrangements in place by 2020”.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
hackmum · 24/07/2017 16:47

Does anyone know if the bill also applies to under-18s? It occurs to me that an interesting test could be when a 12-year old girl decides she's a boy and would like to apply to Eton or Harrow.

Pointing this out might be a way of getting some of the right-wing Tories on our side.

Collidascope · 24/07/2017 17:05

I'm almost wondering if the primogeniture issue is the thing to target here.
As far as I know it's the only exception to gender trumping sex. The idea that an older daughter identifying as a male could swipe title and property away from the firstborn son. The fact that they made that exception shows someone has thought of how the movement could be used disingenuously and decided: rapists moving to female prisons is fine; men entering women's changing rooms -fine; men taking over women's sports -fine; men in women's refuges -great; woman getting the inheritance -fucking hell!! Get the lawyers!

I almost want to act like a TRA and start protesting this exception. It seems bizarre that the rest of us have to be 'progressive' and 'right on' but the bloody landed gentry aren't even in the 20th century yet.

If they've managed to make this exception they clearly have influence and power, and it might be nice to see how they use that power when the trans movement actually threatens them in some way. It might also point out the hypocrisy of the current system where there is one rule for the posh and one for the ordinary. It would be a 'safe' way to get the debate going because there's nothing transphobic about advocating for trans men -(aka women).

venusinscorpio · 24/07/2017 17:10

Yes and then complain when we don't play like nice girls and produce 'nuanced' posts for them. Fuck that shit

I'm not going to waste my time on people like that. if I said what I thought about that person MN would delete it.

BeyondDrinksAndKnowsThings · 24/07/2017 17:11

Anyone have a list of non-titled elder sisters to hand?

PseudoBadger · 24/07/2017 17:14

No comment from MNHQ?

hackmum · 24/07/2017 17:23

Collidascope: I agree with you 100%. It shows that their heart isn't in it - they don't really believe that saying "I'm a man, I just happen to be in the wrong body" means that that person is really a man. So they know it's nonsense. But they've decided that in this one tiny area to acknowledge it's nonsense, but to ignore it everywhere else.

So, yes, perhaps we should be campaigning for an amendment to the bill that allows elder daughters to announce they're male and claim their hereditary right. Because actually if you really believe the transgender argument, and you really believe that it's OK to change people's birth certificates to be whatever sex they "feel" they are, then you should be absolutely fine with women who think they're men trumping the hereditary rights of their younger brothers. Bring it on.

hambo · 24/07/2017 17:24

following....

catgirl1976 · 24/07/2017 17:27

This thread has nearly filled up in less than day and yet it isn't appearing in the "Trending" box

Just saying........

venusinscorpio · 24/07/2017 17:27

They never do.

venusinscorpio · 24/07/2017 17:28

I bet we could make one Beyond! Time to get out Debretts!

Identifyasabraziliansupermodel · 24/07/2017 17:37

Brand new petition! Please sign and share...

www.change.org/p/38-degrees-38-degrees-stop-silencing-and-censoring-women

And yes, extremely disappointing response from MNHQ - stand up for women, FFS!

FerretsAreFeminists · 24/07/2017 17:38

I don't have anything else to add that hasn't already been said but this whole thing is fucking terrifying Sad.

FerretsAreFeminists · 24/07/2017 17:40

I really want to share this petition on Facebook but I'm terrified about the backlash I will get. Has anyone shared things like this on FB? Did you get any backlash?

Soubriquet · 24/07/2017 17:45

I did and so far only one person has disagreed with me

Two others defended me

But I don't really care if I lose fb friends

CastIronCookware · 24/07/2017 17:45

I wonder if something can be arranged so that groups of women in all the major cities decide they are men on one specific day and go into these mens clubs, changing rooms etc.

Best place to do this would be the public toilets in the House of Commons.

StatelessPrincess · 24/07/2017 18:08

Ferrets I've shared things on facebook and had quite a few people agree but most of my friends and family are Muslim. Non Muslim friends have stayed very quiet. I hope people can see past me being religious and think about the actual implications of this bill for everyone but unfortunately I don't think they will.

Datun · 24/07/2017 18:23

MineKraftCheese

Don't lose heart. Rome was not built in a day. You have to be in this for the long haul.

We may not manage to dismiss this law, now. But it will go. I promise.

It was ever thus for women. Battles may be lost, but wars will be won.

Outrage and fear will fire you up today. But it's resilience and determination that burn the embers and will keep you going for tomorrow.

Do not let this skirmish dampen your anger. Let it kindle. Because it will roar.

MajesticWhine · 24/07/2017 18:31

There was a short debate on radio 5 at about 5.20pm today between Paris Lees and a female mp (forget name). Main argument of Paris Lees about the proposed legislation was that it makes the lives of trans people easier and they have such a terrible time; so many end their lives; that anything that makes their lives easier is good. And anyone not trans who is complaining about it, well it's not affecting them so it makes no sense for them to complain.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 24/07/2017 18:31

I filled out the form as, although currently with my male DP, I do identify as bisexual. I also put in the comments a link to this thread and a warning that a lot of heterosexual women on this site were planning to infiltrate the thread by “self-declaring” on a thread not intended for them. You do realise the law is not yet in place so you can’t self-identity to fill in this form? You probably haven’t broken the law but you are very much against the spirit of what that form was intended for.

How dare you

You have no idea how many women and men on here are gay or bisexual or trans or anything else

VestalVirgin · 24/07/2017 18:33

I won't share on Facebook because Facebook is under my real name and I know that transwacktivists are violent. I'm a coward, sorry.

However, I talked to some real life acquaintances and they think the whole thing is bonkers. Probably because I am in Germany and the whole nonsense hasn't really gained traction here. (Only some bonkers libfems are really promoting it)

All Americans I knew who weren't radfems have turned on me and told me to die in a fire, but they only know me over the internet, so I don't much care. Though I was a bit hurt initially; I get too attached to online friends. Should have known I couldn't count on them.

Datun · 24/07/2017 18:34

And anyone not trans who is complaining about it, well it's not affecting them so it makes no sense for them to complain.

We're fifty fucking one percent of the population, for fucksake.

It's so deceitful.

Soubriquet · 24/07/2017 18:37

What Rufus said

You have no idea if I am gay, straight, bi, man or woman. You can suspect but unless you know me you don't know.

What you did was wrong

Theresnonamesleft · 24/07/2017 18:39

This really hasn't been hasnt thought through by government or by people saying hey what's the problem.

This isn't just about toilets or sport stuff but everything.

Years ago I was in a very violent relationship. As an emergency measure when I was released from my female only ward I was placed in a b&b. he followed me unknowingly to the b& and attacked me. From there I eventually went to a female only refuge.... if this bill was passed he would have id'd as a female to get in the place. I am not saying this is something all men would do, just those hell bent on further abusing their exes. Where would leave victims of dv? Think about it. They would stay because there's no escape so what's the point and potentially become a statistic. Females are often advices to contact WA, but in future where will we advice them to go?

To say it's fine is not fully understanding the implications. This will have an impact on everyone whether they are male or female. It is a people issue and everyone should be consulted regardless of how they identify or what group they belong to.

thatwouldbeanecumenicalmatter · 24/07/2017 18:39

Biggest issue threatening women's rights right now.

MNHQ:

Justine, I know you're busy n all polishing your shiny medal you got from the Queen but Rome's burning here...

Thisisouting · 24/07/2017 18:40

I shared on Facebook no one gives a fuck! They'll be the one's complaining the loudest if this law gets passed!