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Gender Self Identity Law coming! MNQH and Mumsnetters: Time to pick a side

999 replies

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 23/07/2017 10:09

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40692782

This is going to happen unless we speak out now.

Other thread in feminist chat

Fence sitters everywhere, please read, be aware of what is coming

From the Times:
Tories promote the right to choose your own sex
Transgender reforms for birth certificates
Adults will be able to change their gender legally without a doctor’s diagnosis under government plans that will transform British society.
Men will be able to identify themselves as women — and women as men — and have their birth certificates altered to record their new gender.
Ministers plan to tear up the existing rules that mean people have to live for two years as their desired gender before they can officially change sex.
A consultation on the Gender Recognition Bill, to be published in the autumn, will also include proposals to scrap the requirement that people get a formal medical diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” before applying to switch gender.
Critics warned that allowing people in effect to “self-identify” as a member of the opposite sex, while maintaining the anatomy of their birth gender, would unleash a firestorm of legal cases over access to women-only hospital wards, prisons, lavatories, changing rooms and competitive sports.
Justine Greening, the minister for women and equalities, called the move to give more rights to transgender people the third great “step forward” after equality for women and the legalisation of same-sex marriage in 2013.
The announcement is timed to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1967. Greening said ministers want to “streamline and demedicalise” gender change to make it easier for people to switch their identity legally.
In future people are expected to be required only to make a statutory declaration that they intend to live in the acquired gender until death — in line with arrangements already adopted in Ireland.
The consultation will address whether those whose gender is “non-binary” should also be able to define themselves as “X” on their birth certificates.
A separate consultation in Scotland will go further than England and Wales by recommending that “non-binary” people should be able to define themselves as “X” on passports. It will also propose a cut in the age at which people can change their gender from 18 to 16.
The plans will be controversial. Prominent feminists including Germaine Greer and Dame Jenni Murray, the presenter of Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour, have questioned whether men can become women even if they undergo a sex-change operation.
Stephanie Davies-Arai of Transgender Trend, a parents’ group, said: “This has huge implications for women. There will be legal cases. The most worrying thing is if any man can identify as a woman with no tests and gain access to spaces where women might be getting undressed or feel vulnerable — like women’s hospital wards, refuges and rape crisis centres — women will just stop going to these facilities.”
Self-identifying was recommended by a parliamentary committee last year chaired by the former cabinet minister Maria Miller and it has the backing of Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn.
Greening also announced the government will make it easier for gay men to give blood. At the moment men who have had sexual contact with other men are barred from donating for 12 months. That will be reduced to three months.

Ministers will launch a national survey of Britain’s estimated 1.5m LGBT people to help inform policy.
The education department has also announced £3m will be spent on “anti-homophobic and transphobic programmes”. Schools, including faith schools, will be required to include LGBT issues in relationships and sex education.
Greening, who is in a relationship with a woman, said: “This government is committed to building an inclusive society that works for everyone, no matter what their gender or sexuality.
“We will build on the significant progress we have made over the past 50 years, tackling some of the historic prejudices that still persist in our laws and giving LGBT people a real say on the issues affecting them.”
Ruth Hunt, chief executive of Stonewall, the lobbying organisation, welcomed the plans. “We need a simple process which isn’t medicalised, intrusive or demeaning,” she said.
The move will put the government on a collision course with some religious groups. Simon Calvert of the Christian Institute said: “It is worrying when the leaders of the main political parties are so out of touch with the concerns of ordinary people.
“Allowing men to self-identify as female without any medical diagnosis allows them to invade the privacy of women and girls.
“It’s time for a reality check. Some things can’t be changed. May and Corbyn want to elevate the principle of ‘gender self-declaration’. But it is wrong, it is anti-scientific and it is dangerous.”
A source who is close to Greening acknowledged that the proposed changes could be problematic. “That’s why we are going to have a consultation, so we can examine all the implications,” the source said.
A Scottish government spokeswoman said it hopes to have “new arrangements in place by 2020”.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
AskBasil · 24/07/2017 18:46

Collidascope yes we need to campaign on that point.

It shows so clearly, how they don't really believe the shit they are legislating.

Datun · 24/07/2017 18:47

MNHQ. Six months ago if you had posted a thread about trans on AIBU, you would have been annihilated by 70% of posters.

Now it's less than 1%.

Women are waking up. They get it. We ALL get it.

All women will get it. It's logical, it's rational, it's real, and it's happening.

Draw a line in the sand.

You will win.

hackmum · 24/07/2017 18:51

Theresnonamesleft: "If this bill was passed he would have id'd as a female to get in the place. I am not saying this is something all men would do, just those hell bent on further abusing their exes."

This is a good point - it's the same way in which paedophiles seek to gain jobs working with children. People always accuse feminists of being paranoid and assuming that all men who work with children are paedophiles - well, no, but if you are a paedophile, that's exactly the kind of job you're going to go for. You have to think about the worst case scenario. People who are violent or sex offenders will look for the loophole that gives them access to their victims.

DamnDeDoubtanceIsSpartacus · 24/07/2017 18:51

I've noticed no one posts "Not another trans thread Yawn" anymore.

Lurkedforever1 · 24/07/2017 18:58

Having spoken to a few people today I think there are a lot of outdated and rose tinted views of trans, and to get full support we need to overcome this first.

If someone had asked me 20yrs ago I would have been in full support of trans. Starting underage in the late 90's and then early 00's, my friends and I frequented gay clubs and bars a lot, because straight or lesbian as a female they were a fun, but safe night out. We were there precisely to get away from sexist and/or predatory males. Trans were just more nice people, who took a lot of shit from bigots outside that community, not a group to be feared or who wanted to erode women's rights.

Now most of us might know the current trans movement isn't anything like that anymore, and that trans people who are like the type I encountered 20yrs ago are also suffering because of current trans agenda. But I don't think Jo public have yet realised trans has changed, and the average trans activist has nothing in common with the trans they remember.

GahBuggerit · 24/07/2017 18:59

Well said Datun. I've been talking for a long time about this to friends and family. I used to be ridiculed and told it would never happen. Not anymore.

People are waking up.

GladAllOver · 24/07/2017 19:00

Stop sitting on your hands MNHQ.
What do we have to do to get a statement?
If this site means anything apart from a source of income, you owe it to us to speak up now.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 24/07/2017 19:02

I've reported the thread to mumsnet in the hope that they will actually out their heads above the parapet and support women in this. They have enough influence that their voice might actually be heard.

My MP knows my feelings on this, but has very politely dismissed them

DamnDeDoubtanceIsSpartacus · 24/07/2017 19:02

So true Lurked, the trans movement has been hijacked. Some people are really keen that there are no areas of privacy for women and kids.

user1498911589 · 24/07/2017 19:04

If this site means anything apart from a source of income, you owe it to us to speak up now.

That's just it, it's a source of income and of stories for the daily fail

I can't think of any other reason why recent reported messages which have been out and out criticism of the Gard/Yates family have gone ignored. I don't understand why all the discussion of that family has been allowed when another high profile family can't be discussed.

How long before this is deleted ?

MagicMoneyTree · 24/07/2017 19:08

Sorry just on way out so haven't RTFT but remembered signing this a while back:

www.citizengo.org/en-gb/pc/41304-say-not-dangerous-gender-identity-bill?tc=tw&tcid=37972918

Sorry if someone else has already posted!

MajesticWhine · 24/07/2017 19:08

Personally, I think it's asking a lot for mnhq to take a stance on this. We can use the site to discuss, publicise and mobilise. We don't need mnhq to agree with a particular view.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 24/07/2017 19:11

Oh and just to even things up

Can people stop saying 'traitor to your sex' for goodness sake

Datun · 24/07/2017 19:12

MNHQ. You don't have to show your hand or come down hard on one side. It's difficult, I know. It's political, I know. It's revenue, believe me, I know.

Play it clever. Find some way to just acknowledge that a debate should be had. No opinion, no nailing a flag to a mast. Just a neutral, musing speculation that debate is a positive thing. For both sides. To be inclusive. To aknowledge the opinion of both sides. To work together to form a coalition.

Be the organisation who wants to help. Everyone.

Blistory · 24/07/2017 19:13

I think MNHQ walk a fine line on this one and have no doubt that they come under fire for not shutting these types of discussion down.

I'm grateful for the space and the opportunity it has provided for women to express their thoughts, become informed and to spread that awareness.

SmileEachDay · 24/07/2017 19:17

MNHQ- Datun speaks sense (as usual)

Protect the importance of the debate. Acknowledge that it's an issue that affects everyone.

BeyondDrinksAndKnowsThings · 24/07/2017 19:18

While I don't expect mnhq to take a stand on the whole thing, they could take issue with this one proposal (and it's not party political as it's across most parties).
I don't expect that either tbh, but it's more likely than them flying a terf flag Grin

BabychamSocialist · 24/07/2017 19:18

To be fair, it's never going to be an inclusive debate when you have some posters comparing a group of people to the behaviour of paedophiles.

StatelessPrincess · 24/07/2017 19:19

What if we asked for this thread to be moved to the mumsnet campaigns section?

Datun · 24/07/2017 19:28

Blistory

Oh, I totally agree. HQ have been much more lenient now than they were 18 months ago. Whether that's because they agree or whether they have an eye on the bottom line, who knows?

They obviously realise that the opinion on mumsnet has changed. Whether they think that is an adequate temperature check for the general population, again, who knows?

From my dealings online, I would say that it is a very definite temperature check. Every single below the line comment I read on these articles is critical.

The millennials with their 57 varieties of gender, has counted against transgenderism. People see it as a transient, meaningless youth movement that far more people are against than are for. Including most of the rest of the youth.

No one gives a fuck what you are identifying as today, when you can change it all tomorrow, but still insist on pronouns to validate your 'authentic self.'

Conflating the two issues is directly undermining transgenderism.

People are getting bored, irritated and find the whole thing tedious.

Time to get ahead of the zeitgeist.

grafittiartist · 24/07/2017 19:50

MNHQ don't have to do anything- just letting this space be is what's needed. Thank you for your post Datun!

thatwouldbeanecumenicalmatter · 24/07/2017 20:14

Has anyone mentioned how much this is potentially going to cost the NHS? Instead of running one set of tests on a patient they're going to have to run extra tests to cover symptoms that could be potentially a male or female related problem? Will both women and men have to do a preoperative pregnancy test before surgery? I'm assuming nothing is going to be left to chance incase of a negligence lawsuit? Or will this play into the politicians hands who've been desperate to fully get the green light to dismantle and privatise the NHS because the extra cost is going to be prohibitive to a free at point of use service?

erinaceus · 24/07/2017 20:14

There is a difference between the headline of the BBC article

Consultation on changing legal gender to be launched

and the title of this thread

Gender Self Identity Law coming!

If the consultation begins in in the Autumn, as per the BBC article, can an individual submit evidence to the consultation? I do not know how such things work.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 24/07/2017 20:15

www.parliament.uk/about/how/laws/passage-bill/

For those who dont seem to be aware how uk parliament works with a bill becoming law, might help calm some of the hyperbole down.

venusinscorpio · 24/07/2017 20:39

It's not hyperbole. We do know how it works but they are determined to steamroller it through, and it has cross party support because no party, including WEP, gives a fuck about women's rights.

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