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Gender Self Identity Law coming! MNQH and Mumsnetters: Time to pick a side

999 replies

AssignedMentalAtBirth · 23/07/2017 10:09

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40692782

This is going to happen unless we speak out now.

Other thread in feminist chat

Fence sitters everywhere, please read, be aware of what is coming

From the Times:
Tories promote the right to choose your own sex
Transgender reforms for birth certificates
Adults will be able to change their gender legally without a doctor’s diagnosis under government plans that will transform British society.
Men will be able to identify themselves as women — and women as men — and have their birth certificates altered to record their new gender.
Ministers plan to tear up the existing rules that mean people have to live for two years as their desired gender before they can officially change sex.
A consultation on the Gender Recognition Bill, to be published in the autumn, will also include proposals to scrap the requirement that people get a formal medical diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” before applying to switch gender.
Critics warned that allowing people in effect to “self-identify” as a member of the opposite sex, while maintaining the anatomy of their birth gender, would unleash a firestorm of legal cases over access to women-only hospital wards, prisons, lavatories, changing rooms and competitive sports.
Justine Greening, the minister for women and equalities, called the move to give more rights to transgender people the third great “step forward” after equality for women and the legalisation of same-sex marriage in 2013.
The announcement is timed to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1967. Greening said ministers want to “streamline and demedicalise” gender change to make it easier for people to switch their identity legally.
In future people are expected to be required only to make a statutory declaration that they intend to live in the acquired gender until death — in line with arrangements already adopted in Ireland.
The consultation will address whether those whose gender is “non-binary” should also be able to define themselves as “X” on their birth certificates.
A separate consultation in Scotland will go further than England and Wales by recommending that “non-binary” people should be able to define themselves as “X” on passports. It will also propose a cut in the age at which people can change their gender from 18 to 16.
The plans will be controversial. Prominent feminists including Germaine Greer and Dame Jenni Murray, the presenter of Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour, have questioned whether men can become women even if they undergo a sex-change operation.
Stephanie Davies-Arai of Transgender Trend, a parents’ group, said: “This has huge implications for women. There will be legal cases. The most worrying thing is if any man can identify as a woman with no tests and gain access to spaces where women might be getting undressed or feel vulnerable — like women’s hospital wards, refuges and rape crisis centres — women will just stop going to these facilities.”
Self-identifying was recommended by a parliamentary committee last year chaired by the former cabinet minister Maria Miller and it has the backing of Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn.
Greening also announced the government will make it easier for gay men to give blood. At the moment men who have had sexual contact with other men are barred from donating for 12 months. That will be reduced to three months.

Ministers will launch a national survey of Britain’s estimated 1.5m LGBT people to help inform policy.
The education department has also announced £3m will be spent on “anti-homophobic and transphobic programmes”. Schools, including faith schools, will be required to include LGBT issues in relationships and sex education.
Greening, who is in a relationship with a woman, said: “This government is committed to building an inclusive society that works for everyone, no matter what their gender or sexuality.
“We will build on the significant progress we have made over the past 50 years, tackling some of the historic prejudices that still persist in our laws and giving LGBT people a real say on the issues affecting them.”
Ruth Hunt, chief executive of Stonewall, the lobbying organisation, welcomed the plans. “We need a simple process which isn’t medicalised, intrusive or demeaning,” she said.
The move will put the government on a collision course with some religious groups. Simon Calvert of the Christian Institute said: “It is worrying when the leaders of the main political parties are so out of touch with the concerns of ordinary people.
“Allowing men to self-identify as female without any medical diagnosis allows them to invade the privacy of women and girls.
“It’s time for a reality check. Some things can’t be changed. May and Corbyn want to elevate the principle of ‘gender self-declaration’. But it is wrong, it is anti-scientific and it is dangerous.”
A source who is close to Greening acknowledged that the proposed changes could be problematic. “That’s why we are going to have a consultation, so we can examine all the implications,” the source said.
A Scottish government spokeswoman said it hopes to have “new arrangements in place by 2020”.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
bambambini · 24/07/2017 21:53

I don't think we can expect mumsnet to take sides here - sllowing free debate is enough and more than many medis outlets allow.

I've never marched in my life -but i feel marching for female- womens/girls rights might get me started. Also women en masse using male loos. Faced with the pic attached - i think it might hit home.

I think most men totally get it and support female spaces and sports - more than women do tbh.

Elendon · 24/07/2017 21:54

It's like The Handmaid's Tale. I watched it last night and felt sick because I see these things happening right now.

bambambini · 24/07/2017 21:56

And if you want to see what vocal TW snd their female allies thinknof female concerns? This is fairly typical.

mobile.twitter.com/transscribe/status/889445917274845184

Elendon · 24/07/2017 21:56

But that person looks like a woman with short hair.

fruitlovingmonkey · 24/07/2017 22:00

I won't be going to Canada again.
I don't think we are far off women being jailed for misgendering a transperson or denying them access to women's spaces and then ending up in prison with a bunch of males.

Elendon · 24/07/2017 22:00

Re the twitter feed. So good to know that Katelyn is thought of as a Christ like figure. Smile

bambambini · 24/07/2017 22:02

What actually is a woman anymore? I go online and when i see "man, woman, girl, boy" - I really have no idea what i'm dealing with.

Elendon · 24/07/2017 22:02

Would it be ok if we called them flower, petal, sunshine, my lover?

LadyinCement · 24/07/2017 22:03

So that picture is of a woman who is identifying as a man? Well of course she - oh, excuse me, they - have periods! Duh! This is lunacy!

bambambini · 24/07/2017 22:04

Katelyn creeps me out. Have a look at some of their articles. They block any dissenters so their feed is a little echo chamber of pro trans fans.

Zephyr01 · 24/07/2017 22:10

I think most men totally get it and support female spaces and sports - more than women do tbh.

Most men (including myself) do get it. But how many men have commented on these threads? Some in the feminist movement have succeeded in alienating men. You only have to look on this site to see 'all men are violent rapists' type of posts.

Me writing this will be written off as 'mansplaning'. So to a certain extent I think many men will have reservations about sticking their heads above the papapet as you're not sure what sides going to take pot shots at you.

ladyballs · 24/07/2017 22:10

I haven't RTFT but I'm on the side of women and girls. This bill is awful.

Datun · 24/07/2017 22:11

busyboysmum

Really sorry you have to put up with that shit. This debate is a mess.

sooperdooper · 24/07/2017 22:12

What is actually being done though? We can argue ourselves into the ground on here but it won't change a bloody thing!

There's a petition here - sign it share it, it's a start

www.change.org/p/38-degrees-38-degrees-stop-silencing-and-censoring-women

And tomorrow I'm writing to my MP, anyone who hasn't yet then do so, write to them, go and see them, make your opinions heard on this - they are the ones who will vote on this, arguing with folks online won't actually change anything

What else practical can we do? Ideas??

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 24/07/2017 22:12

I wasn't surprised to find that I'm blocked from Katelyn's account, but I looked at it from another browser while logged out. Hmm. That's a very creepy headtilt in the innumerable selfies. And what's with the endless requests/demands for money? It's all very blatant, isn't it? Why not get a real job like the rest of us have to?

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 24/07/2017 22:13

I have no idea who is a man on mumsnet and who isnt

I could make an educated guess (or advance search) but you cant tell from a name

(Except one person who was convinced that only men had sci fi names)

FunctionalAnatomy · 24/07/2017 22:13

Atenco And sometimes it feels like a huge social experiment to see how much they can convinced us all that black is white.

Yes. And the incredible/terrifying thing is that those who are usually most likely to be outspoken against this kind of thing, those who are usually the first to cry "1984!", are the ones swallowing the ideology without question.

busyboysmum · 24/07/2017 22:18

I've written to all my mps and meps today.

Explained it all to my mum who is horrified and wants me to write on her behalf as well so will be doing so tomorrow.

I think letters to the newspapers opening debate would be good.

Also got the women at work onside today. No one seems to have heard of it or understand the implications but when they do they are horrified.

Spread the word.

TheQuestingVole · 24/07/2017 22:21

For those asking about the previous bill - it was a Private Members Bill introduced by Maria Miller. Private Members Bills rarely get enough parliamentary time to make it into law.

However - this will be a Government Bill, and as such it will be prioritised. We have a two year Parliament, so it will likely get the time it needs. And - what seriously worries me - you can't challenge primary legislation by judicial review unless it's on the grounds of it violating the ECHR - but I don't think there is protection in that for women's spaces (although I am by no means an expert in this area). But if that's the case it's a serious omission in my view. So if this passes it is a done deal and can only be undone by repeal.

If you're lurking and unconvinced, you need to know that your right to female-only services and spaces is extremely fragile. One would need to see the proposed substance of a new bill, but it's entirely possible that it could modify the Equalities Act 2010 in such a way that you can no longer provide women-only services or spaces - which you currently can.

It's time to get really, seriously organised, sisters.

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 24/07/2017 22:23

@Atenco you're not the only one who's suspicious. Think about just about any civil rights movement you care to think of - black civil rights in the US, gay rights, women's rights. All of them had to fight tooth and nail to gain acceptance, scrabbling for a few pennies here and there. Trans rights becomes the cause du jour, and suddenly Soros is bank rolling it. Where's his money for, say, Black Lives Matter? Why this sudden and remarkable coalition of Conservative and Labour MPs (barring a few with religious objections). Why are religiously conservative countries which ban abortion tripping over themselves to welcome trans rights with open arms? What's in it for the people with money, power and influence?

Most civil rights movements are scary for the establishment and they fight them tooth and nail. This one on the other hand - the establishment (barring the religious right in America) are rushing headlong to accommodate them. What's going on?

Sorry, major tinfoil hat moment - but I do find it really, really weird.

Elendon · 24/07/2017 22:27

Yes, I'm with you Atenco and Mostly. And I'm no lover of conspiracy theories either.

BestZebbie · 24/07/2017 22:27

One thing I've not seen on this thread is the reasoning for the abolition of the extended period of "living as a ..." before the legal status change: which is that that period puts trans individuals at real risk.
The current situation has "Cross-dressing men coming into the Ladies loo" (etc) for two years before they are allowed to be granted the legal status to do so as women (and vice versa) - during this period people are required to live as another gender but not having the actual paperwork status to back it up whilst they do so can be massively awkward at best and puts people into really vulnerable and dangerous positions at worst. For clarity, the people at risk are the trans individuals getting "caught out" in "the wrong space" and harmed over it, either physically or through persecution and ill-informed shaming.

venusinscorpio · 24/07/2017 22:28

How is that a reasoned debate? How can you discuss with someone like that?

I can relate. Both Facebook and twitter are a cesspit of idiotic aggressive troll types.

BeyondDrinksAndKnowsThings · 24/07/2017 22:30

ECHR -

article 9) right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion

article 14) without discrimination on any ground such as sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status.

venusinscorpio · 24/07/2017 22:32

Trans rights becomes the cause du jour, and suddenly Soros is bank rolling it.

I think that from his POV it might be a big social experiment to see just what is possible and the power you can exert. I certainly don't think when the legal rights are achieved that will be the end.

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