To give up on 8yo DD?

[ByeByeTether]

I have 3dc, a DS17 who despite being born to a teenage mum and having a useless father who has barely bothered with him, has turned out really well, is sensible, kind and funny. A dd6 who is lovely but clingy and accident prone (suspect dyspraxia). And dd8 who this thread is about.

During my pregnancy, abusive XH was having an affair with a 16yo girl and then had many affairs since, so things have never been easy. She was a fractious child and then went on to have some behavioural problems as a toddler - would hit other children. Despite the difficulties, I threw myself into motherhood, putting my career on hold and completely living for the children.

At around the time I left XH, dd1's behaviour deteriorated. She has no self esteem and will not accept compliments. She is violent and destructive and has 'meltdowns' every day. She's obese and very tall so I cannot physically control her.

After 3 years of begging for help but being turned away by all the professionals, the school stepped in and we now have a social worker, she's seeing CAMHS, has been accepted on to some other schemes but it feels like too little too late. The professionals are basically blaming me saying that I behave as an abuse victim and she has become the abuser. I have raised the possibility of an underlying condition such as ASD. They don't seem interested in exploring this avenue.

My problem is, I have nothing left emotionally or physically, to try and sort this out. I am quite ill with a chronic condition so I have barely any energy. I do not enjoy my DD's company and our bond is severely fractured. I don't know if I can get that back. I hate my situation and motherhood, it's now affecting my relationship with dd(6) and I am withdrawing further and further.

Their relationship with their dad (XH) is complicated. He's controlling and abusive to me still. He's seeing them EOW at the moment but has gone through phases of not seeing them at all and doesn't take proper care of them all the time. He would never have them full time as his girlfriends and his social life come first.

I have a week off work this week to spend with them. Usually I would be planning our time to pack in as many activities as possible but this time I don't want to do anything or go anywhere. I've spent the last week being battered by DD and I am dreading a week of the same. She's already kicked off this morning over her hair.

I have begun an online parenting course and signed up to emails from a parenting site but I feel like I'm past the point of being able to turn it around. I feel totally and utterly trapped with just one way out but I don't want to leave my DC without a parent and I could never do that to my family. Does anyone have any advice about where I go from here or has experienced similar? What do you do when you are at the end?

Op, I don't say this to criticise but does your dd have any positivity in her life? Is she ever praised for good behaviour or do you ever tell her you love her? I have absolutely no experience with asd but we had much milder behavioural problems but with wanting to kill herself with our dd around the same age. Her behaviour was basically because of low self esteem and love bombing just provided that reassurance she needed whilst she was going through inner turmoil.

If your dd won't talk will she express herself through words? Could you have a book that you and her can write in. We used to put it under each other's pillows but it helped her open up.

As someone said, could you take some leave, even get your gp to sign you off with stress if necessary and spend some time to reconnect with her?

I really, really feel for you. You could be talking about my DS9. We were being supported by our council's early help for families unit and CAMHS but things didn't improve. It was only when we got a private diagnosis (ASD, ADHD and dyspraxia) that anyone took notice. My heart breaks for you. Please keep pursuing this - for you and the rest of your family

for you OP. We are in a similar boat with our DD (8), and the total lack of any help. And she comes from a household without abuse. We're lucky in that although she's totally obsessed with food (has found and eaten a WHOLE pack of After Eights today that I was saving as a gift) she isn't overweight or particularly tall yet, so we still restrain her rather than get hurt.

We don't know what to do next. Every referal is refused. Today alone she has run away 4 times. It's tearing me and DH apart and our other 2 children watch our DD have these meltdowns and I feel useless that I can't protect them.

I wish professionals would listen to parents more, and I wish there was more funding.

Our DD's have so much potential to offer, they need help NOW to give them the best chance.

I really feel for you OP. I think that what you said about your dd not seeing that her meltdown behaviour is inappropriate is very important. I don't think that this is because of a lack of boundaries but a lack of understanding. One of my dd's frequently melted down at this age and to be honest it was like a storm passing through her; she had no idea what hit her and neither did I. Tbh after the meltdown had passed it was sufficient to just regain hers/my equilibrium. There was no space for blame and punishment and besides conventional discipline never worked. I spent years trying to control/discipline/conventionally parent her all with great difficulty. Things changed when I changed. Believe me this was a massive shift for me and it didn't happen overnight. I had to realise that although her behaviour seemed under her control, it probably wasn't. Anxiety was a massive problem for her, so I had to try and reduce that. ( Everything came to a head when she started school refusing so there wasn't much of a choice). I try my very hardest not to shout back, not to cry in front of her as I know that showing my emotions only provokes hers. My friends shudder at my parenting now, it probably looks very lenient and that I let her get away with lots of stuff that they would never let their dc's get away with. However, at the moment she does speak to me, does tell me things, ( it may not always be that way), but for the time being we do have a relationship again. My ultimate aim is to keep the channels of communication open between us.

Please try and get some more help. Someone out there will 'get' her and hopefully be able to help. It takes a lot of trial and error but I do hope that you can get the help you need. Best of luck.

This may be a silly idea but could you go with your dds to a yoga class together -.perhaps one that focuses on meditation aspects - it would be a positive thing health wise and meditation can be a good way of training your minds? Also judo classes are a good way to learn self defence moves for you.

Obvs there is more to it than just this but it might be a good thing to do together and reconnect a little?

If she is having a proper meltdown rather than a tantrum, then punishing her afterwards may not do a lot of good, as she may not even have a very clear memory of what happened. When dd had hers she used to go into a complete state of confusion where she could hardly recognise the people around her. She once told me later that it seemed as if I had turned into some horrible monster that she had to protect herself against.

To punish her for that would be like punishing her for things she said or did when she was delirious with a high fever: you wouldn't expect it to have a positive effect on general behaviour and it absolutely wouldn't stop them if they ever became delirious again.

My brother was very similar as a child: completely out of it.

Both my mother and I were perfectly capable of maintaining boundaries when a meltdown wasn't going on, and both of us had other children who did not have meltdowns (just tantrums). But meltdowns were just different.

*OP this sounds so very hard.

"One of the professionals said at the meeting that her behaviour is a choice - ergo it's my parenting to blame"

That professional sounds absolutely vile and like they have little experience of children or adults. Not everything kids do is down to parenting, especially as you have three kids and only one is giving you all these difficulties!

It sounds like you are alluding to suicide yourself, are you getting any help? "I feel totally and utterly trapped with just one way out but I don't want to leave my DC without a parent and I could never do that to my family."

Does your dh need to be in their lives? Does his presence make things better or worse? Is he dad to all three or just the older two? You said "He's controlling and abusive to me still. He's seeing them EOW at the moment but has gone through phases of not seeing them at all and doesn't take proper care of them all the time." How is he still abusing you and would the kids be better off not having contact with him?

If she is having a proper meltdown rather than a tantrum, then punishing her afterwards may not do a lot of good, as she may not even have a very clear memory of what happened. When dd had hers she used to go into a complete state of confusion where she could hardly recognise the people around her.

I'd second this. My DS is a very calm and mostly easy child but was occasionally driven (usually by his sister, subtly pushing his buttons) into huge uncontrollable meltdowns in which he totally lost it and had to be restrained to prevent him hurting someone. He did not have any control over himself, and only quite confused memories of it afterwards. As an aside, an 8 year old who loses it completely can be surprisingly difficult to restrain, even if they are average sized and you are no pushover (I used to compete nationally in a sport requiring significant physical strength).

DD on the other hand had a lot more tantrums and meltdowns, but they were much more "manipulative" for want of a better word (they were aimed at achieving something). We eventually figured out that the best way of dealing it was to plonk her in her room with no attention, and tell her she had the right to feel angry but not to inflict her anger on everyone else. But she was not violent, just had very poor impulse control (mild ADD) and a phenomenal talent for pushing people's buttons. What worked best was withdrawing attention, frequent positive reinforcement, and the occasional "nuclear deterrent" punishment. She literally didn't care about the sort of mild punishments that most parents use, and reward charts were a waste of time - I found that they are not immediate enough as feedback for very impulsive children who typically need more frequent and more direct positive reinforcement. We used the Berkley (sp?) behavioural recommendations for parents of ADHD kids. In her case, early puberty was rocky, including behaviours that put her health in danger, but by 11/12 she was a different child. It may be coincidence but at this age she found an outlet for her emotions (writing and music).

OP, given her talent for art, would some sort of art therapy, or even just art classes, be of help? It would give you a break, and perhaps a way of safely venting emotions for your DD.

OP if she is abusing you then you are not acting like a victim, you are one. People who do not understand how strong children can be, even at 8. My dd has a very, very, mild version of some of the things you describe. At 8 she was very difficult and we had tried since 6 to get to PCAMHS. We were referred to the familylinks.org.uk/parents course for free and I did it. It worked well.

However, later, at about age 10, we took her to PCAMHS, they accepted us second time. The school felt it was ASD and we were told ASD tendendcies. No further advice. Now at 12, with her periods started, hormones etc, she is talking about not wanting to live. We are back at PCMHS again and now being told to ignore ASD tendencies.

It's a small nightmare, much, much smaller than you have and it is amazingly stressful. So I have no idea how you are coping. Our son is adopted and younger (6) and has plenty of reasons to play up, but he is coming along really well. I've also been told (even by a relative!) it is my parenting and my not being tough enough. Some people have no idea.

I guess I am just reading your thread and wanting to say, that I do understand, some of it.

YOU are not failing your dd. The system is.

I will keep reading. I am finding with dd I need to try really hard and I can sometimes manage to not allow things to escalate, and I am not talking nearly so often as you, much less frequently. So you absolutely have my sympathy.

We are now thinking (well I am) about Attention Deficit, plus maybe OCD, which I had undiagnosed as a teenager. My OCD has morphed (so my therapist things) into an eating disorder, so I would consider that maybe your dd's eating is all part of what is happening for her, and not just about your mum's poor food choices.

In terms of your mum, could I just suggest that she may be using food to pacify your dd and may see the treats and crisps and what not as a way to 'control' her in a helpful way for her. And/or she may be unaware what else to buy. If she has access to online shopping you could help her to put in a healthy shop and show her what might work.

Certainly a better diet would help your dd a little, I feel, but there is so much more there I can well see why you and your mum would not be overly worried about her crisp intake.

"But at this point I've given up because nothing I do makes a difference and she continues to batter me and her sister and destroy the house." Just to say if this does continue then you may need to look into alternative accommodation for her. I know this would absolutely be a last resort but if it comes to this, then please do not feel guilty.

brasty are you really expecting the OP to be physically assaulted by her daughter or to watch her daughter self harm over a packet of crisps? That really would be madness.

hasitcometothis "I'm not sure why giving her daughter an ASD label would make things magically better. What would change?"

A label s only useful if it is true. Imagine being labelled 'Gluten-intolerant or Coeliac' and it not being true. Inconvenient. But if it is true, and you don't get that label you go through life exposing yourself to gluten and being ill and not knowing why!

ASD or anything like it is not as simple as gluten-intolerance or Coeliac, but knowing why your child (or you) act the way you do is sometimes very helpful.

"What reason for not taking these on board?" The OP has not said she is not taking things on board. She seems to have been offered no real help.

Pengggwn your advice about suggesting that the OP may put her dd into care if she needs to is spot on, in my opinion.

Our son is adopted so I know something about the care system.

However your choice of words "she is going to continue to be at risk in your home without an effective parent to enforce boundaries." Is wrong, IMHO.

It is not just that this child is at risk, it is that OP and her 6 year old are at risk from her 8 year old. Plus the idea that it is always the parent who is doing something wrong is not correct. Some children do not respond well to normal parenting, I've done a lot (about 10) parenting courses and I still struggle with my dd and she is no where near as difficult and challenging as the OP's dd.

"I am sorry to be direct about it but I think the summation is toubneed urgent help if you are going to turn this around, and you need to put your DD first and let someone else step in if you can't find it in you to do that." I can well imagine the OP would love someone else to stop in. I know I would at times. And please remember that sometimes the child is doing things in relation to the parent, so a different parent or a different carer may not be exposed to the same level of behavior. It still does not mean it is the first parent's fault, or that they have made their child like this.

Schroedingerscatagain your post on page 3 is like a breathe of fresh air. Likewise 8Meesh and Maryz*.

This is going to sound creepy but I would try and bug her when she's with her dad. OP has said she has a phone now, does anyone on here know of an app OP could put on her phone to listen in?
He had an affair with a 16-y.o.? I wouldn't trust that man with kids. Even if there's no clear pattern of her being worse before/after she sees him.

Also, not sure if this has been said (skimmed the thread ) but have you tried Relate, OP? Many Relate centres will have a children's specialist (here) You said you've tried counselling but counselling is often about finding the right counsellor. Some are really good, some are crap, and some are ok but just don't click with you. So please give it another try if you can. I believe you'll have to pay for your first session (currently £55 in my area) but if they take you on they can claim the expenses on the NHS.
They also have a free online chat although I suspect that's staffed by trainees so often pointless. Still, perhaps they'd be able to signpost you.
Please don't give up on her! And look after yourself if you can

I am saying that OP's DD has found methods of getting what she wants. OP needs help to change that. Otherwise things will simply get worse

brasty "I can't imagine not being strong enough to defend myself from an 8 year old."

Then you are very lucky. Be thankful that a tall, obese, 8 year old is not attacking you and you do not have a medical condition requiring over 12 hours sleep but living on a lot less.

Sorry I didn't know OP had to sleep over 12 hours sleep. I know many illnesses make you sleepy and tired, but I did not know any medical conditions required you to sleep for a long time.

your advice about suggesting that the OP may put her dd into care if she needs to is spot on
How? how is that going to make the child feel better about herself being sent away,dumped on strangers- that's how she will see it.It is not about the Op , it is about her daughter.The Op chose to be a parent- her dd did not ask to be born!

As a parent with a younger but similar sounding child, and a professional involved up until recently with camhs services, I completely empathise with you OP.

I'm afraid that this is the reality of an underfunded and over stretched mental health service. I left as I couldn't cope with being faced with so much need and feeling powerless to do anything to help (long waiting lists and high threshold). I feel guilty but I had to put my own mental health first.

Can you ask if there's a psychologist in the team? And request to see them? You're in the door so that's good, but it's often a crisis response service these days and the actual process of facilitating change can be neglected ime.

I know you feel it's too late. An attachment based therapy like theraplay might help, if it's offered at your camhs. I agree with 'putting on your own oxygen mask first' and even if your dd won't engage with sessions yet, they can still give you support surely?

I often feel similarly about my ds and our bond but also feel so angry that it's hard to find the compassion so desperately needed. It's so true that they need us most when they deserve it least.

Has anyone been able to connect with your dd? Does She have a trusted adult at school? Can she express herself creatively? You said she's good at art?

I can't imagine what it must be like to cope with no support and I'm not surprised you feel at the end of your tether. But you are still going. Are you managing to eat properly at least? I think talking to other parents in similar situations might be beneficial - can you do any parenting groups in real life? Incredible years (Webster stratton) is good for this age. I think you said it's an online one you are doing?

Finally, don't hesitate to be the parent who is always calling the duty support line and keep asking for help. If they ask you whether you can cope this weekend, be honest and say no. Sometimes it is the ones who shout loudest who get listened to I'm afraid.

You can do this.

I forgot to ask whether anyone has looked at sensory issues for your dd?

Also, apologies for the brain dump... hopefully some of it made sense

Lurkedforever "peng I agree that nobody but ops dd really knows what is going on, and at 8 she won't have the emotional maturity to self analyse and then verbalise what is wrong. However, self harming is not the normal reaction of an 8yr old to ineffective discipline. I think that we can safely say that whatever the causes it is far more complex."

THIS - with bells on. The OP has been very clear she has had lots of past strategies and disciplines for her dd and these worked while she could physically enforce them, perhaps after a fashion they worked.

It is very clear there is something very serious going on here and the fact that parenting has been spoken about on this thread so much is very sad indeed! Parenting can indeed go wrong. But this is very clearly not a parent who is failing, she is a parent who is being failed.

Sorry about your dd I haven't rft yet but she sounds a lot like my friends eldest she has ODD has anyone considered this?

brasty "Sorry I didn't know OP had to sleep over 12 hours sleep." I can't be bothered to go back and find where the OP says something like her condition is best managed with 12 or 13 hours sleep a night but she is living on a lot less. I have known people with various medical conditions that make it very hard to function on little sleep. We are all different and I am, not a doctor, so no idea which condition it is. But if the OP says her tall, obese 8 year old is stronger than her, I would tend to believe her!

Stressed we looked into ODD (Oppositional Defiance Disorder) and PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance) for our dd, she came up with some point on one and some on the other but nothing concrete.

OP it would be something to look into, I can't remember how they differ exactly.

user1495025590 "your advice about suggesting that the OP may put her dd into care if she needs to is spot on
How? how is that going to make the child feel better about herself being sent away,dumped on strangers- that's how she will see it."

I would imagine going into foster care, which may be temporary or permanent would make everyone feel quite bad. I doubt the OP or her DD would feel happy about this at all. Which is why I said it was, I would imagine, a last resort.

However, the OP has made it very clear she is struggling to go on, and has two other children to care for. If her 8 year old, in a fit of rage, pushes her down the stairs, or seriously injures the 6 year old, then I would imagine someone may well be going into care.

I would be very surprised (as the mum of a child through adoption, my son, not my daughter) if social services will simply come and take your child into care, I would imagine it would be much more complex than that. They will do all they can to keep the child in the family, I think, at first. As they did with my son (his birth family).

I am not suggesting this as an opt out, it would not be that, but it may be one day that this is what happens. And if it does, I hope the OP will not feel guilty as she has clearly done so much.

"It is not about the Op , it is about her daughter.The Op chose to be a parent- her dd did not ask to be born!"

What is not about the OP? Her own life, her other children, her ability to cope? No one would even think of this unless they were seriously stretched into a corner. I very much doubt I have put ideas into the OP's head.

And if the issues are related, in the child's head, to her mum or dad, or family home, then being 'dumped' on foster carers who have had training and are not related to her (or her past history) may be the best way for the child to get her head into a better space.

I don't want to blame the child or the parent. I have no idea what has caused all this. But I do very much hope the OP gets the help she needs.

I also wonder if some form of medication may help the child. I know of children through the care system diagnosed with ADHD who have had some form of medication. Again, this is not something anyone would suggest lightly. The OP has done the behavioral charts and time out and all that and is now left with a child who is attaching her and her 6 year old. This is not normal 'lack of parenting' issues.

May I kindly suggest to Op to look up and research Prader-Willi syndrome?. Your DD has some of the signs and symptoms.