To give up on 8yo DD?

[ByeByeTether]

I have 3dc, a DS17 who despite being born to a teenage mum and having a useless father who has barely bothered with him, has turned out really well, is sensible, kind and funny. A dd6 who is lovely but clingy and accident prone (suspect dyspraxia). And dd8 who this thread is about.

During my pregnancy, abusive XH was having an affair with a 16yo girl and then had many affairs since, so things have never been easy. She was a fractious child and then went on to have some behavioural problems as a toddler - would hit other children. Despite the difficulties, I threw myself into motherhood, putting my career on hold and completely living for the children.

At around the time I left XH, dd1's behaviour deteriorated. She has no self esteem and will not accept compliments. She is violent and destructive and has 'meltdowns' every day. She's obese and very tall so I cannot physically control her.

After 3 years of begging for help but being turned away by all the professionals, the school stepped in and we now have a social worker, she's seeing CAMHS, has been accepted on to some other schemes but it feels like too little too late. The professionals are basically blaming me saying that I behave as an abuse victim and she has become the abuser. I have raised the possibility of an underlying condition such as ASD. They don't seem interested in exploring this avenue.

My problem is, I have nothing left emotionally or physically, to try and sort this out. I am quite ill with a chronic condition so I have barely any energy. I do not enjoy my DD's company and our bond is severely fractured. I don't know if I can get that back. I hate my situation and motherhood, it's now affecting my relationship with dd(6) and I am withdrawing further and further.

Their relationship with their dad (XH) is complicated. He's controlling and abusive to me still. He's seeing them EOW at the moment but has gone through phases of not seeing them at all and doesn't take proper care of them all the time. He would never have them full time as his girlfriends and his social life come first.

I have a week off work this week to spend with them. Usually I would be planning our time to pack in as many activities as possible but this time I don't want to do anything or go anywhere. I've spent the last week being battered by DD and I am dreading a week of the same. She's already kicked off this morning over her hair.

I have begun an online parenting course and signed up to emails from a parenting site but I feel like I'm past the point of being able to turn it around. I feel totally and utterly trapped with just one way out but I don't want to leave my DC without a parent and I could never do that to my family. Does anyone have any advice about where I go from here or has experienced similar? What do you do when you are at the end?

I am an ASD diagnostician in the NHS and privately. Your little girl sounds very much like other little girls we see in clinic and diagnose with ASD.

User, your post is very unhelpful, badly informed, and frankly typical of why girls with certain ASD profiles attract labels of 'naughty' because they don't fit other people's misconceptions of what ASD looks like.

Op sorry I haven't read this whole thread, please insist on an assessment for ASD.

Have you been referred to any parenting programmes?
123 Magic is worth a go, and look out for any local support groups offering courses dealing with difficult behaviour, or for altering parenting styles.
Also look into the possibility of referral to an OT or SLT for a sensory assessment.

data And suggesting a mother is letting her child down and being a pushover.... That's in the spirit of the site is it?

I would start by writing a list of what you need to give to SW and agree a timeframe in which they'll provide it.

Ask school how they are going to support her with friendships and what are the outcomes they are expecting and set a date for review.

Draw up a timetable for home to help reduce anxieties.

I know the childcare issue is hard but I'd tell your mum she is over feeding the kids which is a form of neglect and abuse and if she doesn't stick to what rules you agree then you'll withdraw contact.

I think I can see where Camhs are coming from re abuser and victim analogy. Your mum is dictating what your child eats even though you know it's not good for her and the result is an abuse child.
Children who crave food can have oral sensory needs and she may be fit from a chewy or something to feed this need?

Going through the boxes and ticking them is part of the assessment process. That isn't to say once you've tried x, y and z they won't assess for asd but they need to rule out other reasons for the behaviour first.

Oh, and I'd also ask school if they support you by arranging DD to do some intense physical exercise daily whilst there if you can't get her to do it with you.

The hair thing wasn't me, she is obsessed by her appearance and wants her hair to be 'perfect' and gets frustrated if it doesn't go right. She has boundaries but if it's a choice between being physically assaulted and letting her have a packet of crisps, what would you do? Or she threatens self harm so I do everything to avoid a meltdown. They still happen several times a day though. Every time we get somewhere with the professionals, I feel hopeful that we will get this resolved but that is quickly dashed when you find out they are either useless (I wouldn't believe the incompetence unless if dealt with it first hand) or refer to someone else and we start all over again.

I wonder why you ignore professionals who are saying that the issue is your relationship with her? They are saying you are behaving like a victim, and she is your abuser. Maybe they are right. I would contact Women's Aid about attending The Freedom course, and see if they can recommend any other help.

And she is only 8, it is not too late to turn things round, but it will take a lot of hard work, and maybe facing up to unpleasant truths.

And yes, I would not give crisps if it meant an 8 year old was going to physically attack me or threaten self harm. All you are teaching her is that attacking you and threatening self harm works.

Oh op you sound so worn down

My ds has asd but has never had any behaviour issues, he's now 14 and I have read every asd book I can get my hands on, I'm obviously no expert but it does sound to me like asd.
It's much harder to detect in girls as they tend to "mask" it better but your dd is clearly lashing out here and is displaying signs.
Please do not give up exploring this possibility.
I knew my ds had asd, I just knew, call it motherly instinct if you wish but I did.

Wishing you all the best, you sound like a lovely mum xx

The behavioural issues are probably a mixture of things. My son is high functioning ASD, but lemonade would send him through the roof!

First thing is to deal with what YOU personally can control. Try to think about what you CAN do, rather than what you can't.

Whatever you have to do, keep your daughter away from junk food with lots of additives. Cut out the fizzy drinks - there's absolutely no need for them. Cut sweets way back to occasional treats.

You know your mother, find a way to make her understand about giving your children junk to eat. Make food yourself and give it to your mother to feed your children.

YOU are suffering because of your daughter's issues. Your DS8 is suffering and no doubt her little sister, too. Get a handle on what YOU can do to make things better.

A diagnosis for ASD is not the be-all and end-all. It still requires a lot of lateral thinking on the part of the parent. Good luck.

I'm not ignoring them, this was what was said to me at the last meeting (just this week). They also don't actually tell you how to deal with it, they just tell me what they think is going on. They want me to do the freedom programme. I have agreed already. No referral to a parenting programme either - they want me to continue my online one.

I have never claimed to be a good parent, I know I'm fucking up massively with DD but her problems are beyond ordinary parenting methods, I am not a psychotherapist and gave no insight into what is going on in her mind. I've spent three years asking for help and being denied, it wasnt always this bad. But at this point I've given up because nothing I do makes a difference and she continues to batter me and her sister and destroy the house.

The situation is clearly tough for the OP and she has my sympathy, but I'm not sure why giving her daughter an ASD label would make things magically better. What would change?

The professionals have suggested reasons for/responses to her child's behaviour. What reason for not taking these on board?

op you are getting all sorts of advice here, some of it helpful, some of it very practical and useful.

Overall, your daughter sounds as though she has issues above and beyond those stemming from her relationship with you. Her behaviour makes life difficult and you are having to give in because she's quite controlling.

Again I will reiterate that this is what I do for a living and that she very much sounds as though she has ASD, possibly the PDA type. The insistence on perfection is a red flag.

Have a look at the website for the PDA society. Please don't feel bad about how you feel or what you have to do to cope right now. I have seen many parents in your position.

My dd same age is very similar to yours except there are major problems in school. In a way this helped as they couldn't manage her at all despite 1:1 and called meetings with the professionals themselves including CAMHS.

You mention relationship problems when you were pregnant. Could there be attachment issues? Also you say you have difficulty relating to her.

My dd does not have asd but has regular input from CAMHS who also say it's her choosing her behaviour. Bit more complicated than that but that's the gist.

Hand hold here. I'm chronically ill. I hear it's really hard for you.

Just to add another perspective, my dd stopped developing when she started school. Up till then I'd been able to hide from her just how ill I was as she went to nursery 3 days a week as I wasn't capable of looking after her. At the time, I wasn't able to stand up for much of the time and dd would help herself yoghurt etc from the fridge at a very young age. She managed her emotions using food and put on weight when my health deteriorated. She was just turned 3 when I became very ill.

It sounds as though your dd is crying out for help. And I know she sounds very tough to deal with. As I say, dd stopped developing when she started school. By the time my dd was in the middle of yr1, she wouldn't let me out of her sight. She could be pretty aggressive at times and would prevent me from leaving the room. She wouldnt allow me out of her sight. The reason? She thought she was in some way responsible for me and had to control the situation. Aged 5, this was the only way she knew how.

My friend told me things were getting serious as I was absolutely too ill to see myself. Looking back, I was turning me into an abuse victim and had we not had intervention, I could well imagine writing your post right now. Dd is also incredibly strong and big for her age (9). In my weakened state, she has been able to overpower me physically for several years.

We saw a child psychologist privately when dd was in yr1. It was incredibly hard wrk for dd as she was forced to go through 18+ months of development over the 5 months we worked with the psychologist.

If your ex is able or willing or you are to pay, I absolutely recommend you to go down this route if you can. Please dont give up on her. Inside she is a broken little girl. If her behaviour started before your split, it could be that she is worried about you and your health. The split will have been a massive trigger as you know whatever her reasons.

I have a friend who is going through similar with one of her DD's, she is 13 and diagnosed with ASD. She is a tall, strong girl and is frequently physically violent towards my friend because she has the body and impulses of an adolescent and the emotional maturity/impulse control/anger management of a toddler. My friend finds the emotional disconnect of fiercely loving her child yet being physically afraid of her very difficult. Your DD isn't an 'abuser' and I think professionals making that assertion to you is disgracefully naive and ignorant of what might well be at the root of this. It's not her fault, she's 8 years old! It's also not your fault if she has ASD and is unable to control herself.

I understand girls with ASD do not fit the 'traditional' profile, probably because it's a largely male condition so better understood and identified in boys. One of my sons has mild ASD, but it was obvious from a young age because he slotted into the profile. Whilst a label won't change your DD I do think it might help you access better help with managing her behaviour. At 8 she may be beginning puberty and that won't be helping matters.

OP have you any way to get a break from it all? A week off somehow? Do you ever get any down time? Are there any charities that would give you a break, such as Action for Young Carers?

Thanks everyone for the replies, I really appreciate it.

I feel trapped by my circumstances. My mum will not listen to me, I've had many many conversations with her about what she feeds my DC. I don't buy junk food except ice lollies and crisps for our packed lunches. She's eating the crap at my mums. Thankfully they won't be going as much from September and I have them booked into holiday club for most of the summer holidays. But if I don't work, then we can't survive. Most of the decisions I've made are through necessity rather than choice.

Due to the sector I work in, I've met several parents with ASD DC who tell me they think DD has it. I've tried telling the professionals but they don't listen although some say they agree something else is going on. I change my mind frequently about what I'd causing this. Sometimes I'm convinced she has ASD or an associated condition, other times I think it must be the abuse she's witnessed (is still witnessing) from her dad.

meesh77

Nothing at all suspect about an 'ASD diagnostician' (curious title) suggesting a diagnosis over the Internet.

You do know that a false perception of disability/illness can be just as (if not more) harmful than a failure to diagnose?

Hi op, massive hugs for you. I've been where you are and so I'm going to start by saying that it will get better and you are not a failure.

Absolutely nobody can fully understand if they have never been through it, they just can't. Not their fault as it is something I wouldn't have understood if I had had my NT children first.

I understand your exhaustion, your feelings of hopelessness and that absolutely awful feeling of not wanting to be anywhere near your child.

My ds was about the same age when we hit the worst of it, he was violent too and it was horrific. I shed many tears over the state of our relationship and the negative feelings I was having towards him. He is 16 now, not perfect of course but we are very close and have a great relationship.

In terms of strategy, our life at that age was:

P/t timetable at school (not ideal but he could only cope with so much)
Social work involvement (family support took him out for activities and took him on team building courses with other children)
Adjusting his diet, for our son it was removing gluten that finally did the trick. It won't work for everyone as not all children have an intolerance but our son did and removing gluten actually stopped the violence.

They key is a proper assessment. I also have a dd with asd who is very quiet and well behaved, but self harms and has suicidal thoughts. Asd does present differently in girls and it is absolutely impossible for anyone to rule it out without a full assessment. And even then it can be extremely difficult and lengthy.

My ds was diagnosed virtually straight away, it was so obvious. My dd took 3 years, reports from school and about 6 different assessments with cahms. (And I wasn't pushing for it as I didn't think she had it tbh)

Anyway, that was a longer post than I intended! Please feel free to pm, I do have some contacts that may help and if nothing else I can listen without judgement. for you

She may or may not have ASD, she may be struggling with post trauma stress, she may be struggling with bereavement and loss, she may have sensory issues - it could be a hundred things or none. Whatever it is, the answer is going to lie in your relationship with her and your parenting of her - even if she is on the autistic spectrum you'll still need to adjust your parenting to meet her needs, orhwewise a diagnosis becomes just another label.

It sounds like you want there to be a "reason" for her being the way she is that isn't your "fault" - CAMHS seeing a abused/abuser pattern isn't about blaming you but helping you see a dynamic at play that's hard to see when you're in it. With the best will the world, an 8 year is showing signs of severe distress if she's self harming - I wonder if seeing her behaviour as her trying to cope and have her needs met might take some of the sting out. As in it's not aimed at you, or caused by you but as her mum, mum of the answer lies with you because you are the key relationship in her life.

It might be worth looking st books aimed at parents who have adopted their children because they teach therapeutic parenting methods which are non-blaming and aimed at children who have experienced trauma and distress and who have very challenging behaviours as a result.

She's only 8, i know it's incredibly difficult but she deserves not to be given up on.

You need to have her seen by somebody who understands how girls with ASD present, and also with experience of diagnosing PDA

Hasitcome, sometimes children with asd need different parenting techniques from the standard ones. Shall we not bother diagnosing any medical conditions or disabilities?

Are there things you can do to reinforce your sense of worth/confidence OP?

As hard as your situation is, you are surviving, you are battling.

Has it come to this

If you want a more specific title, I lead an NHS diagnosis team in forensic psychiatry and I spent 20 years in camhs. Is that less suspect? The term 'diagnostician' is perhaps a shorthand or more accurate way of saying 'somebody who diagnoses'

From what's been written I don't think the child has been near anyone who could say it is or it isn't asd.