To give up on 8yo DD?

[ByeByeTether]

I have 3dc, a DS17 who despite being born to a teenage mum and having a useless father who has barely bothered with him, has turned out really well, is sensible, kind and funny. A dd6 who is lovely but clingy and accident prone (suspect dyspraxia). And dd8 who this thread is about.

During my pregnancy, abusive XH was having an affair with a 16yo girl and then had many affairs since, so things have never been easy. She was a fractious child and then went on to have some behavioural problems as a toddler - would hit other children. Despite the difficulties, I threw myself into motherhood, putting my career on hold and completely living for the children.

At around the time I left XH, dd1's behaviour deteriorated. She has no self esteem and will not accept compliments. She is violent and destructive and has 'meltdowns' every day. She's obese and very tall so I cannot physically control her.

After 3 years of begging for help but being turned away by all the professionals, the school stepped in and we now have a social worker, she's seeing CAMHS, has been accepted on to some other schemes but it feels like too little too late. The professionals are basically blaming me saying that I behave as an abuse victim and she has become the abuser. I have raised the possibility of an underlying condition such as ASD. They don't seem interested in exploring this avenue.

My problem is, I have nothing left emotionally or physically, to try and sort this out. I am quite ill with a chronic condition so I have barely any energy. I do not enjoy my DD's company and our bond is severely fractured. I don't know if I can get that back. I hate my situation and motherhood, it's now affecting my relationship with dd(6) and I am withdrawing further and further.

Their relationship with their dad (XH) is complicated. He's controlling and abusive to me still. He's seeing them EOW at the moment but has gone through phases of not seeing them at all and doesn't take proper care of them all the time. He would never have them full time as his girlfriends and his social life come first.

I have a week off work this week to spend with them. Usually I would be planning our time to pack in as many activities as possible but this time I don't want to do anything or go anywhere. I've spent the last week being battered by DD and I am dreading a week of the same. She's already kicked off this morning over her hair.

I have begun an online parenting course and signed up to emails from a parenting site but I feel like I'm past the point of being able to turn it around. I feel totally and utterly trapped with just one way out but I don't want to leave my DC without a parent and I could never do that to my family. Does anyone have any advice about where I go from here or has experienced similar? What do you do when you are at the end?

I agree the OP needs to seek proper advice from the NHS but can people please stop just providing that advice.

Even if money was no object and she saw a ohyscholgist tomorrow who diagnoses asd her DD will still be the same and present the same.

It's much more helpful to advise strategies to use - including those used with children who have neuro developmental disability - as that's what will make the difference.

Haitcometothis - Cahms staff member I was working with said asd is caused by parents behaviour. That it is an attachment disorder and if parents had better connection then they would not have an autistic child.

That is not a representative attitude I have come across, Waybalooloo, and I have worked with many CAMHS professionals.

You have had a bad experience, but that is only one experience, and it does not mean that the OP will get similar from their CAMHS service and imo it's reckless to advise them not to engage with CAMHS, particularly as OP's child is expressing suicidal feelings.

Mine was only a few months back. Hopefully all aren't like that, but I have heard a lot of stories about CAMHs not listening to children with asd.

I am not telling them not to engage. I am saying if possible the multi disciplinary team are likely to have a better understanding of ASD, especially the girls presentation. Read everything going on girls and asd op and then people are more likely to listen. Unforunately if it is asd most parents go through this before diagnosis.

I would also want to get a proper diagnosis done. Cound be an autism spectrum issue, could be trauma and grief or a long-term attachment issue, could be a range of different things but if no-one does the assessments they're never going to know.

Choosing the path of least resistance is pretty sensible as long as you're consistent about it - don't ignore a behaviour one day and then come down like a ton of bricks on the same behaviour the next day and then go back to ignoring it. Choose one or two things to deal with at a time. If you decide to ignore something she says or does then keep on ignoring it every time she does the same thing. You can decide to start dealing with that behaviour when you're ready, in a few weeks or months time.

Why do MNers ALWAYS think any behaviour problem is ASD.

Because it needs to be ruled in or out. Any child can have multiple issues at the same time. The OP's DD is showing signs that can be caused by one or a combo of several different things. But sometimes CAMHS stop at the first explanation and don't make the specialist referrals to check for other things.

Op, she is only 8.If you cannot physically restrain her hmm surely your 17 year son is strong enough to help you out

That has got to be the worst piece of MumsNet advice I've read for a while. OP, physical restraint can be dangerous to everyone involved if you're not trained. And physiically overpowering DD is not going to help her deal with her issues at all. OK, you may have to hold her back if it's an emergency where someone is in danger but otherwise it can easily be abusive.

One thing that might help - Ross Greene's Explosive Child book and Lives in the Balance website has been very helpful to some us who are struggling with very difficult aggressive children, especially when conventional advice isn't working well and we don't have a diagnosis to lean on. And it helped me get to a very good dynamic where no-one is either the aggressor or the victim

I am going to suggest a different way....can you take some time off work (compassionate leave) take your other child to your Mum's for a week with some vitamins (crap food and all) and spend the entire week with your DD8 - tell her it is her week, you can go running, swimming, camping at home and cuddle her to sleep. Sing her songs and look at her old baby photos.

Reconnect with her.

When you are in a happier place (and she may kick off a few times) ask her why she gets so sad and angry, can she describe what makes her feel this way.

It may not solve all of your problems overnight, but you can remember what you love about her. You can walk with her, hold her hand.

She is your child, and whether she has ASD or not, she needs you more than anything else. If you need to stop working to sort her out, find a way to not walk away.

I haven't had chance to read the whole thread, sorry, but weird as it sounds you may like to take a look at the Adoption boards. NOT because I am suggesting adoption, obviously, but because those guys are frontline experts in parenting children who've been through trauma and who exhibit some of the behaviour you describe. Sally Donovan's books as well, while they are about adoption, are really good on Therapeutic Parenting and the reality of dealing with children who cope with trauma with angry outbursts or sometimes clinginess (I'm thinking of your other daughter too). Just a thought. Hope things improve.

I think her behaviour is influenced by her environment(s). she sees her dad EOW, who abused you, perhaps her behaviour is a reflection of what she encounters when she is with him? It could also be a reflection of your mother's laid back attitude when caring for your children.

If at all possible, reduce your XH contact and your mother's too. Try to find childcare arrangements in a more positive and nurturing environment.

Could your DDs take part in more after school activities to help them with their social skills and confidence?

Also perhaps see another GP?

sorry, another suggestion - why not contact an ASD charity and ask them to help you get more support from your GP etc? Perhaps the national autistic society could advise on assessments?

Just to clarify above - I mean the MN Adoption boards/threads. They're under 'Becoming a parent'.

meesh et al where have I attempted to diagnose this kid? Yoi need to learn to read - My post is all about NOT diagnosing a stranger's child over the internet.
She may or may not have a SN but for god's sake sort out the obvious first
Any child NT or not who has a mother who says ' I do not enjoy my DD's company and our bond is severely fractured. I don't know if I can get that back. I hate my situation and motherhood, '
and says her child has witnessed and still witnessing abuse, and has no boundaries is likely to be very very damaged.No wonder she has no self esteem if her own mother dislikes her., no wonder she over eats for comfort

The OP does not seem to have engaged at all with the professionals assessment.
She has boundaries but if it's a choice between being physically assaulted and letting her have a packet of crisps, what would you do?
I do everything to avoid a meltdown

Illustrates that she has no clue what teh word boundary means!!

If the kid has a SN the Op cannot fix that, but she can stop[ her witnessing abuse and she can step up to the plate and give this kid boundaries and find something about her to loves

Sounds like asd. What is your chronic condition? I only ask because some are linked with asd! ((Hugs))

I would definitely suggest looking into ASD, specifically PDA. There is a very good book called 'My Daughter isn't Naughty' which may be of interest to you. There are some very useful PDA groups on FB which may be able to point you in the direction of a Paediatrician who may be able to give you a definitive answer one way or another.

Your post reminded me a lot of the little girl in the first episode of the TV programme 'Born Naughty?' Which should still be available on demand. Find it and watch it to see if anything looks familiar.

The way out of this is to start reading and learning as much as you can to see whether any of the ASD or PDA techniques can help your DD, regardless of whether or not you get a diagnosis. Change your GP, start to reduce the contact your DD has with her father if you can. Anxiety plays a large part in a lot of 'bad' behaviour and it could be that he is contributing negatively to her emotional outbursts. The book 'The explosive child' as others have recommended is also really good. I wrote out all of the PDA techniques I could find and put them on the fridge. It literally changed mine and my son's lives. I was on my knees with his behaviour but this was what made the difference to us. We still don't have a diagnosis but he is a lot calmer and our house is a much happier place.

One step at a time. You sound exhausted but don't give up hope. You need as much support as you can get, and so many parents (me included) have had to fight for years to get the help and support they and their child need. But it is possible. Look after yourself.

If we are going down the road of on-thread ASD diagnosis, surely it is far more likely that this young girl has complex post traumatic stress disorder (C-PTSD) due to her start in life and being parented EOW by an abuser???

Don't know if you are still reading this but I would suggest

a.try to go to the GP again as you say you have not for 2 years,
b.get some exercise, e.g. walk or run in the fresh air, as often as possible.

Autistic children often love animals/nature, perhaps you can take daughters out for a walk in the country or local park, to the zoo, wildlife park or something. It may help you both to relax. See how many wild birds, flowers etc you can spot, or buy a trail from www.treasuretrails.co.uk/
Take water to drink, some healthy snacks to munch on the way, or a picnic, maybe bribe with well-earned ice cream at the end. (Well-earned by you obv.) Take some pictures and create some positive memories.

Hope this helps - you sound at the end of your tether.

OP I was misdiagnosed with ASD because of issues I was having, only found out about attachment disorders later on and it is very evident that that is what I really had. It was thought that I had 'grown out' of the more anti-social and compulsive traits of autism when what actually happened was that I recovered from my attachment issues. I have a number of adult friends on the spectrum who can't believe I was ever diagnosed because I manage to do things and handle situations that would be completely overwhelming for them.

I would suggest you have a look at the Coventry grid for reference, a lot of what you've described sounds like it fits under the attachment disorder banner (scroll down a bit until you see the grid):

www.aettraininghubs.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/5.4-Moran-paper-attachment.pdf

I have worked with difficult children like this, and although every child is different and needs a different strategy, my core strategies are as follows:

*Firm discipline. This means no empty threats, no 'revenge' punishments for bad behavior made in anger, but structured rules and an explanation for the child as to why these rules are in place

*Always a choice. You can choose to behave badly and accept the consequences or behave the way I'm asking you to so you can have a reward for following through. Sometimes this means letting the child carry on screaming while you make yourself busy in the next room. When they calm down and approach again, explain why they won't be getting what they want and it was a choice they made. Put the ball in their court.

*Positive reinforcement, and not just for doing something you wanted them to do. All children want to hear from their caregivers that they are good people. Compliment skills and personality traits whether you feel like it or not.

*Good communication. No shouting back, no arguing, just calm rational talking things through. Don't come into a discussion angry, go away for a bit and come back when you're calm.

I know it's hard. I have a chronic illness too and raising children is draining work. I will always say that you cannot change a person's behavior but you can change how you react to it, and this goes for your illness too. You're drained because of the stress of the situation, if you can react in a way that leaves the stress out of the equation, things will get easier.

I'm still reading. Not sure what to post really. I appreciate all the suggestions, many of which I've tried already.

Something has snapped inside me today. I just don't want to do it any more. Everything is too hard and I've tried and tried and tried and nothing changes. Besides, my life is one shitty event after another and I don't want to do it anymore. What is the point?

I've engaged with the professionals to the pp that said I haven't. I've raked up painful memories at their request, repeated our story over and over, been scrutinised, criticised, spent hours reading, making phone calls, driving to appointments, cried in front of more professionals than I care to remember, etc etc etc. All for nothing because not a single professional has given me any advice on what I'm actually meant to do with her. Of course I've done it all because I have hoped that at some point, someone will actually help us. We were given 8 sessions with CAMHS. First one was going over what has happened to date (for the umpteenth time), second was on my own to talk about our history again but without DD there. We have 6 sessions left but the worker has already said he's not sure what to do as DD won't engage with him. Another avenue to help closed. Another pointless waste of energy and time that just results in us being at square one.

I know there is nothing anyone can say. I know I've got to keep putting one foot in front of the other. I just don't want to do it anymore.

kleinzeit
The Op's DD is physically battering her and she is not strong enough to stop her, so you are suggesting she should have to take the beating rather than getting the 17 yo to help restrain her !
You are an idiot!

Take her to see a psychiatrist. I had a lot of stress as baby (though nothing close to what having an abusive parent must be like) and probably as result of that suffer from depression, which can manifest as anger.

Citalopram doesn't fix my other depression symptoms, but does fix the anxiety and anger issues.

I would not usually recommend medicating an 8 year old, but seeing as you cannot cope and it would be stressful to her to be put in a foster family, I think medication might give you something of a break and enable you to implement all those wonderful recommendations others made about parenting.

A psychiatrist will be able to give you a diagnosis and recommend medication that will help with her specific issues.

I agree with everyone who recommends removing her from your ex. You need to take all possible steps to reduce stress for her, and witnessing his abusiveness is stress.

I can't imagine not being strong enough to defend myself from an 8 year old.

This is a typical scenario:
DD is drawing a picture (she loves art and is very good - everyone who has contact with her comments on this). Something will go wrong (according to her) and she will totally lose it. She will scream and shout, rip the picture up then go on a rampage kicking furniture, throwing things. Sometimes, she'll look for DD to hurt, other times she'll do it to me.

Other times she will ask me for something and if I say no, she'll stand there pummelling me and all I can do is put my arms out to stop her as I can't physically lift her or drag her. She's incredibly strong and is very tall. I do not give in even then, I just wait for her to calm down. If we're having a difficult day and she is having a lot of meltdowns, I am very careful about what I say no to and I pick my battles carefully.