AIBU to be ready to just give it all up because of childs lies

[FP239]

I am a mum to 5 beautiful kids. Me eldest was a picture perfect kid until around age 11. Then the lies started right after the transition from juniors to seniors.

They have been unable to keep long term friends and flit between groups, are outcast for bad behaviour/compulsive lies and it goes on and on. My heart breaks as I love them so much and they seem so miserable. They have told social services I am abusing them all and need to be arrested/sectioned for their safety. Told school they are a full time carer for me and my other children. Ruined any family trips/holidays that we have been on and had other people constantly comment to me about their bad behaviour and lack of respect towards me. They took themselves into hospital after hearing voices and refused to leave the bed for 5 days . Told the doctors I detest them and they wished me dead ( never ever possibly true) .Eventually the mental health team said they didn't believe them as the story changed every two minutes and depending on who they were talking too. Diagnosis-attention seeking. I had to redo my whole year at uni as the stress over my exam period meant that I was useless for the month.

They have claimed to have cancer twice, then been victimised and horribly bullied due to this and threatened suicide constantly. Lots of risky sexual behaviour like sending underage naked pics of themselves while a sibling was in bed next to them.

They lie horrifically to immediate family members knowing that I will find out within hours and have to go through damage control. And my partner is as soft as jelly and when I raise an issue, says that we don't know the entire story and need to speak to our now 19 year old child to find out the truth. They will say that the family member is lying and he will believe it totally. I finally got them an appointment with mental health and told them EVERYTHING. Got a diagnosis of emotionally unstable border line personality disorder for our adult child and got sent home. No therapy, but can apply for a 6 week course of CBT with a trainee. They wont engage in it.

My life feels like its in ruins. My best friend of 24 years has just been in touch and my 19 year old has been going around saying they were in a nightclub with them and they were doing hard drugs and were embarrassingly drunk at 4am. Not true, I know she was at home watching love island. Everybody has been very tolerant over the years but now these rumours could very seriously affect my friends business and her credibility within her field. I am literally at my wits end with this shit. Its getting to where I have bursts of pure rage over the friends and opportunities that my child and their illness have caused me. Why cant they just NOT LIE?! We have been told time and time again its attention seeking behaviour (for attnetion from other people, not just us) but I can't take it anymore. They can not hold down a job for more than 6 weeks and lurch from disaster to disaster.

I am fed up it. My life is a constant tense wait for the next massive drama they bring home, the next fight I have with my partner and my own mental health is in absolute shreds. I don't know what to do. But my instinct is to get our little rental property empty and send my partner and our adult child to live there to give my younger kids some peace and respite from this non stop shit storm. My partner and adult child will say I am out of order and abandoning my parental responsibilities. WTF do I do? This is destroying us all.

So, AIBU to send them to live apart from us for a while. Has anybody ever experienced anything like this?Any advice at all as I am at breaking point.

Have a look for a centre or private counsellor here
www.counselling-directory.org.uk

Some counselors offer discounts, especially if it's long term. Find one specialising in childhood trauma.

In my area, teams are very reluctant to admit people with a BPD diagnosis to hospital even in a crisis, as there's no evidence that it's beneficial, and can even be harmful (I think concerns about creating a dependency on the inpatient ward).

The NICE guidance is pretty worthwhile reading to highlight what should be offered in terms of treatment. However, goals are important. If the function of your daughter's behaviour is to elicit care and interest from others, then what's in it for her to try and stop doing what she's doing? How does that need get met?

As an aside, I'm surprised a diagnosis has been offered at such a young age. 25+ is really when something like a personality disorder should be diagnosed because our brains continue to grow and develop until then - the frontal lobe in particular. I've known young people present with BPD symptoms at 18, and for these to be much better managed / less problematic as they get into their early 20s.

for me, there is no 'better'. no treatment, heavily medicated and ECT is my next stop.please, don't lump people with BPD into a homogenous group and say that it can be treated. it might well help, but there is no money at all for the long term psychotherapy i need.

for me, BPD is like living with my nerves on the outside. everything hurts. i'm 44. it's been a shit life and i'm tired. there is no money for therapeutic interventions where i live. none. so i hang on, day to day, putting off the inevitable.

exWifebeginsat40
I think our experiences sound quite similar. I was discharged from the CMHT as my consultant told me he needed to save 25% of his budget; I wasn't allowed DBT as I was paying for private therapy at the time (basically to stay alive).
Being as my 8 year 'journey' within the MH system was so traumatic, however, I'd rather die than enter it again. I'll try to be my own therapist, or sink trying.

I don't think it is personality disorder.I think she is hurting very badly and trying to tell you something.

@FP239

Am really glad that what I said was helpful. Should stress again it is hard to access treatment there & once there people have to engage, but yes, it is life-changing for people who complete the programme.

Have just looked, and there's a list available here of similar(ish?) programmes available across the country: www.personalitydisorder.org.uk/services/

It is going to be a fight, because resources are scarce. But at least now you know what you're fighting for, iyswim?

I am not a professional in this area, but I was brought up in a family of social workers in the 1980s when sexual abuse became a hot topic and have learned more than I ever wanted to know on the subject.

As others have said, her behaviour is saying long term sexual abuse to me. I am not sure you will ever get to the 'truth' of what has happened, but there must be some in those early allegations she made.

I also think that if you have autism in your family, it is probable that she also has some autistic traits. This might not appear as obvious 'classical autism'. Also, it is now well known that girls do not present in quite the same way as boys, because they compensate for it better so it stays hidden. But they do have problems from 11 onwards with school. If she has suffered trauma this will not have helped her deal with and process what has happened to her.

She is an adult now. I think like others have said you need some counselling for yourself. You need to transition from and mother-child fixing relationship to an adult-adult relationship - this is hard enough when things are going the way you expect so you do need some help.

FWIW, I do not think moving her out with your OH is a good idea. It is not an 'adult' thing to do at all.

cockacidal maniac heh, yeah sounds familiar.

i had a complete breakdown in 2012 and was hospitalised for over a month. i was given CAT therapy after discharge but i didn't understand at all what it was supposed to achieve - i was my therapist's first 'real' case after qualifying. after a few weeks she admitted she was a bit lost and we stopped it.

my BPD diagnosis was kept from me. and when i found out, i was immediately discharged from services, under the umbrella of 'nothing works for BPD'. i've been told more than once that i'm untreatable without a long-term stay in a therapeutic setting. which the psych ward
is not.

i've digressed. sorry, OP. keep letting your daughter know that you love her. i would suggest contacting MIND regarding BPD diagnosis to see what the clinical pathway is in your area. i go to a fortnightly support group run by MIND and it is fantastic - is there one where you are?

people with EUPD have major issues with abandonment. Tread carefully before asking them to live elsewhere, it could make things much worse

God love her. And you. I have nothing useful to add, but I just wanted to say that you sound like an amazing mother.

This thread is heartbreaking. I really feel for you, OP.

To see a child apparently self-destruct in this way, and have to try and balance your responsibility to your oldest against your responsibilities to the younger ones must be so tough.

The lack of options for people with personality disorders in this country is shocking imo. There is so little help. I, too, have heard good things about DBT. I'm also aware that EMDR is now being trialled for BPD/EUPD in some areas and seems to be of some benefit. However, for any of these things to work, the participant has to engage with the process and it may be that your daughter isn't ready to do this yet.

I hope you all manage to find a way through this.

I know this isn't what you've asked, but just wondering if this is maybe possible or would help.

You said that the alleged incident happened when DD was 11. It was reported and the man was interviewed but nothing came of it, due to the sad fact there was a trail of subsequent lies between then and now, which would have unfortunately prejudiced the credibility of any case brought.

But if this did indeed happen, and this man did rape a child so blatantly and 'got away with it' in his head, in all likelihood it wasn't an isolated incident. People like that don't just do something like that once and then stop forever.
Perhaps other children sadly went through this trauma, and have now grown up.
Would it be worthwhile to maybe go back to the police?
If DD remembers the names of other children- now adults, who also stayed in that house, maybe the Police could gently enquire now they are grown up if they remember those sleepovers, and see if his name has been implicated in any crimes since then. Many children don't open up until adulthood for a whole range of reasons. Perhaps they would see fit to reinvenstigate?

I don't know how it fully works on reinvenstigating allegations, but from experience in my own life, a family member had to wait nearly 10 years after a serious violent assault, it was only when the man did the same to a girlfriend, that my relation gave evidence into a pattern of his behaviour.
It technically wasn't 'her' justice as he was convicted of the crime for another victim, but I know being listened to and believed, helped her move forward.

You say all of your child's problems began at that time. I don't know if it's possible, but perhaps addressing that terrible time which is at the root of it all, and trying to get some justice for that, might be the closure she needs to move forward.

OP, for you and DD.

OP

I just want to say that there's no evidence that this personality disorder has to stem from abuse, including sexual abuse. It's believed that sometimes/often this can be a factor, but of course that evidence itself mostly relies on self-report by the affected individual. So take all the people saying it sounds like sexual abuse with a grain of salt.

I just want to say that there's no evidence that this personality disorder has to stem from abuse, including sexual abuse. It's believed that sometimes/often this can be a factor, but of course that evidence itself mostly relies on self-report by the affected individual. So take all the people saying it sounds like sexual abuse with a grain of salt.

There's no history of abuse in my case, just early maternal separation though nobody's fault. I believe there are heavy genetic factors involved in BPD too?

Except the OP has said herself that her DD has said she was raped as a child.
A sudden change in how a child behaves is always for a reason, even if as parents we don't understand that reason. The OP's situation is not like another poster on here whose DC has been very difficult since being a tiny child. Her DD was fine until 11. That does indicate that something happened then.

OP: Only read 2 pages of this thread, so I apologise if this has already been mentioned. Have you looked into whether your DD has histrionic personality disorder? A lot of what was mentioned here: www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/histrionic-personality-disorder seems to fit.

My DS went off the rails when he left primary school to go to secondary. It was like he changed overnight. He's now 20, but I have had a dreadful few years with him. He has calmed down somewhat now, but I'm looking forward to him moving out and getting a place with one of his mates.

As this thread has gone on I am more and more convinced the way to go is to empty that apartment and both you and your daughter move in together. I do think she will need some counseling of some kind to put all this in the rear view, but until she is in a space where she wants that and can commit to the process.

If I were in your shoes I'd sit her down an apologize for the fact she has had to wrestle with all of this on her own, and that all these problems are not of her making. I'd make her a space to be angry at me, from a place of saftey yet reinforce that I loved her very much.

It will be remarkably hard to get through to her as we tend to view other people from the lense of our own selves, so being as she is so deceptive and manipulative she will unconsciously perceive everyone around her as the same, but overtime and with a lot of work and tears you may be able to generate some credibility with her.

In fact thinking about it a suggestion to maybe take a few weeks vacation with just your daughter, ask her if there is anywhere she'd like to go and just the two of you go. You can affect a great change in people just by changing the environment. You can use this space to lay the foundations.

There is a lot on here you've already mentioned that you can use. Keep telling her and reinforce what you've told us how lovely she is and how much you love being with her when she's having a good day. Tell her she's gorgeous is as you told us on here. Beneath all the lies, manipulation and lashing out is someone whose self worth has absolutely bottomed out.

I'm 37 and this is exactly how my story went, except for the lying. I have a dx of EUPD (previously BPD) and have had an 18 week course of group/121 DBT privately, which was the only thing that had any effect. I also have a dx now of ASC, which was underlying and not helping matters at all. Mine was partially a trauma reaction and partially genetic (which is common for BPD since there are differences in the brain that can be seen in FMRI). Meds didn't help (other than once that knocked me out). I moved out of home at 17 and fell to bits but I couldn't have stayed and luckily I made it through my twenties on my own and as I aged things got easier. My DM gave up on me and as pp have said I was refused inpatient treatment because it's not seen as a good idea.

If you can find some funding for DBT that's probably a really good idea, it gives people the skills to de-escalate the extreme emotional reactions that go from 0-100 in seconds at the slightest trigger. Perhaps an assessment for ASC just to rule it out (because if she does have that, whoever delivers therapy needs to specialise in that because the usual techniques won't work).

Feel free to PM me, I have a role in a mental health charity and we provide 250 services across the UK and BPD groups are included.

Lemonylemon I also thought Histrionic Personality Disorder but didn't want to be the one to say it, because the symptoms really don't read well on paper to describe someone's child.
However if the symptoms seem to fit well, OP will know.

I very rarely post but feel compelled to in this case. As soon as I read your OP I immediately thought this is a person who has been through some trauma- when I read about the alleged rape aged 13 (or even younger?) that makes it all make sense, imo. (Though obviously this is only one possible explanation)

I went through a short (ish) spell of compulsive lying in my teen years that I can only put down to sexual abuse as a child- I honestly cannot articulate why my response was the compulsive lying - I must have been attention seeking. I think I was trying to say that something REALLY bad had happened to me and someone needed to LISTEN but I just couldn't find the words to actually talk about it, or the trauma happened at such a crucial time in the development of my brain that I just wasn't able to process it. I hope that makes sense.
What I'm trying to say is that I believe your childs actions are as a result of a sexual abuse related trauma, and I would pursue that line of thought. I have no real practical advice but I think you sound incredibly strong, and I'm a happy functioning 20-something now and I have every confidence that your child can be a changed person.

OP I wanted to say you have my sympathy, this sounds so hard. I also wanted to say SpiritedLondon I think your post at Tue 18-Jul-17 19:13:27 is potentially relevant here.

May I ask if you know anything about EMDRo you know anything about

www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Post-traumatic-stress-disorder/Pages/Treatment.aspx

"Eye movement desensitisation and reprocessing (EMDR) is a relatively new treatment which has been found to reduce the symptoms of PTSD.
It involves making side-to-side eye movements, usually by following the movement of your therapist's finger, while recalling the traumatic incident. Other methods may include the therapist tapping their finger or playing a tone.
It's not clear exactly how EMDR works but it may help you to change the negative way you think about a traumatic experience."

I have not personally had this but I have heard on the Internet, and from a person in real life, that it is very good.

I agree with Wormulonian that OP "It must be so hard for you and truly heartbreaking. You sound like an incredible mother and a really strong person."

I just want to say that there's no evidence that this personality disorder has to stem from abuse, including sexual abuse. ... So take all the people saying it sounds like sexual abuse with a grain of salt.

I think the point those talking about abuse are making is that the diagnosis of borderline personality disorder may be incorrect. IME, 'lies' told to people outside the home about problems in the home are almost always a cry for help by an abuse (not necessarily sexual abuse) victim. If the OP really wants to help her daughter she needs to hear and think about this stuff.

My best friend has been diagnosed with EUPD (formerly BPD) and has had a great deal of success with DBT and anti-depressants. I think there is help out there, but with all psych conditions, that which works for one person may not work for another.

I'm so sorry this is happening. It sounds like your DC has been through a lot, but I really think there is hope.

I am not BPD but I have schizoaffective bipolar disorder. As a teen I was a screaming nightmare - grade A horror. Manic episodes - taking off to random places, inappropriate sexual behaviour, screaming delusions - the works. I can't imagine it was easy.

I got a diagnosis as an adult, and eventually got a medication and therapeutic regime that worked for me and now hold down a job/relationship/parenthood with no major episodes for 5 years. There is definitely so much to still hope for and I know there are people, especially those diagnosed young, who find some kind of balance within themselves.

"i know that she will try her damndest to prevent us from going away ( my OH at least)." Your dd does seem to have a very intense relationship with your other half. Do you think this has added to the stresses, is there any sense that she wants to break the two of you up, for any reason? I am sorry to even suggest that but I wonder if that is her desire on some level.

So in that sense I agree with Katiekatie37 (although I wrote what I just wrote before reading Katiekatie37 post "Sorry if I'm wrong but she sounds quite fixated with your DH would you say that's correct? If so I don't think sending her to live with him is going to change anything. I think she needs to live semi independently or with you all. She's 19 and I know she's your child BUT is it practical for her to live with your DH forever more? It's sadly sometimes about who shouts the loudest with services stretched at the moment you need to fight for support if that means calling every day so be it."

"My sister is halfway through her masters in psychology to try and find a solution or some insight." What insights does your sister have? I think it is amazing your sister is doing a Masters to try and understand her neice, that is commitment.

innagazing "This sounds such a hard situation to be in, and you have my sympathy.
I have to say though, it sounds an odd arrangement for your Dp to have moved out into a separate flat with them in the past, and is considering doing the same again even though it didn't work last time." I thought the child moved in with her own father before, who is not the OP's current dh. Is that right OP?

But agree "Are there any mental health services for 16-25 year olds that you can re-engage with now, with a view to your 19year getting independent accommodation of their own, (maybe assisted/supported?) on the grounds of their mental health issues. The same service should be able to offer some sort of help with claiming benefits, and possibly community worker to monitor mental health issues.

Have you pushed for an up to date psychiatric assessment through the NHS and review of the medication? There may be medication that they will give now, that they wouldn't have given a younger person." Excellent advice, IMHO as someone who has not been here but who is having much more minor issues with my own dd.