Should babies be assigned a sex at birth or choose their own

[bambambini]

Is that where we are heading? Following a twitter conversation that touched on identity politics. what do folk really make of this stuff? mobile.twitter.com/AsiaKateDillon/status/881501055657414659

Hmm, I do feel that the concept of choosing their sex is a little complex for a new born baby

Do doctors and midwives actually declare a sex at birth? Is there like a list with children's sex on it that gets sent from the NHS to the registrars office?

What a load of old bollocks

I think If Asia cares so much about it being defined in a certain way, she should probably not go about definitions and reinforcing gender stereotypes.

Calling yourself gender neutral or non binary is just another way of labelling yourself and putting yourself into a category.

About not being defined in a certain way that should have said!

Who the fuck is Asia anyway?

Oh that's right I don't give a flying fuck

What do transactivists want to achieve by not making a baby's sex at birth?

Well, for one, no one would notice a trend in the abortion of female babies, because it would just not turn up in the statistics!

Murder of female toddlers? No one notices! All isolated, indidual very tragic cases where some random madperson kills a child. We don't know why it happens and can do nothing against it!

Women being paid less than men? No statistics.

Women never getting anywhere in professional sports? No one knows! What a weird coincidence that those people with uteruses and ovaries never get a gold medal! But who cares? Separation between women's sports and men's sports is just about women wearing pink and men wearing blue, but of course all professional athlethes were born with a penis.

Male violence against women? No statistics. Anyone who commits a crime can identify as a bag full of cats, and that's that then, police will be looking for a bag full of cats that is "dressed as a man", or something.

It is the perfect way of invisibling the oppression of women, now that feminists managed to achieve a state where admitting to oppressing women isn't viewed as acceptable anymore.

Feminism will probably reestablish itself some five hundred years from now, and will have some nice new name that refers to female biology, and will start all over again at zero.

But until then, patriarchy will rule supreme. If we cannot name our oppression, how can we ever hope to fight it?

Sex is not gender
Sex is not gender
Sex is not gender

They are two different things being confused. Cases where genitalia and chromosomes not matching are very very rare. Gender is a social construct.When a child is born if the genitalia is not ambiguous it is either a genetically born male or female. The staff are not "assigning" anything. It just is. The vast majority of people don't adhere to socially constructed gender norms. If someone decides they want to live as a the other gender then thats bully for them but all the wishing in the world isn't going to give them different chromosomes.

*is this thread for real? you either have a willy or vagina! how you live you life is down to you....."

Well perhaps, but they don't indicate what sex you are - according to Asia and many other Tranactivists.*

you've got to be trolling right??

Just because someone has a strong belief in something and is vocal about it doesn't make them right. It's not even a head scratcher, like they might have a point... Gender is empirically very black and white. Yes, yes, you get abnormalities which result in different male and female parts, but that is not some kind of "proof" that there are not 2 sexes.

If you dont agree with masculinity and feminity as a concept, that's absolutely fine. If you think that gender is a fluid concept and gender identity is a spectrum and complex subject, that's absolutely fine, I completely respect that that is how people feel about their gender identity and will always respect that. Should children be gender stereotyped based on their sex? Absolutely not!

But you really do have either a willy or a vagina :)

VestalVirgin

Wow those are really interesting points! See there are lots and lots of dangers of refusing to acknowledge biological gender.

is this thread for real? you either have a willy or vagina! how you live you life is down to you....."

Well perhaps, but they don't indicate what sex you are - according to Asia and many other Tranactivists.*

If Asia and many other transactivists don't think that your genetics determine your sex then they are simply not properly educated.
I suspect they mean gender rather than sex but their ignorance makes them hard to take seriously.

Do doctors and midwives actually declare a sex at birth? Is there like a list with children's sex on it that gets sent from the NHS to the registrars office?

Well, either that, or the birth statistics you can find on the internet are all made up.

Pretty sure the hospitals keep records, and put it on the birth certificate.

Since you are not allowed to give a child a name that's meant for the other gender (i.e. other socially constructed role in society) than the gender that corresponds to the child's sex, in Germany. So they obviously know at the time you register the name. But Germany does have a lot more bureaucracy.
Could be UK and US birth statistics actually are only an estimate based on children born in hospitals.

SnickersWasAHorse – well, yes, you can have a gentleman vagina, just as others can have a lady penis. But you mustn’t talk about periods, because that's exclusionary, and you’d be a TERF if you did that, and literally killing trans people with the violence of your words.

Someone on another thread (wish I'd made a note at the time) talked about the conflict between gender stereotyping and the trans movement: We are now entering the age where a toy tractor is male and a penis is female.

Cherries there's also danger in siding with transideology that promotes the cotton ceiling as bigotry.

WhiteMane sorry to sound so ignorant but any chance of briefly explaining what that means for me?

biological gender is an oxymoron.

The hospitals definitely don't mark sex on the birth certificate. The registrar does.

I am assuming that they now have an online list from the NHS that they can check it against. But this must be recent.

For example in the seventies, there can't have been a daily updated list. Parents would just say, 'here is my female child called Jane Smith, born on this date.' Or were they given a form from the hospital?

Are people now given a form from the hospital? Or do they just tell the registrar the sex themselves?

There are females who, due to their personality, physique, mannerism, voice etc., appear more 'feminine' or 'masculine' than other females within a specific cultural setting.

perhaps if a male foetus is exposed to more estrogen than average at key points in development, or similarly a female one more testosterone, it would be possible for that child to look totally female or totally male but not feel that they are?

I also don't understand how she can say we must stop assigning sex to babies because only your doctor needs to know.

Does she therefore mean that nobody other than medical professionals should know the sex? In that case the NHS should know from birth but it should be kept a secret from the government? Is that what she means?

Why are you posting some randomer from twitter ? This is Mumsnet and there is a very good reasons why I am not in twitter !!!

Mtt say that lesbians who won't have sex with them, including the 80-90% who retain their penis, are being transphobic and should open their minds (and legs). There is a CPS document for school produced by GIRES I think that's used in around 10% of schools reportedly that teaches that 'lesbians can enjoy giving blow jobs' pressumabley if it's a tw 'female penis'.

"But you really do have either a willy or a vagina "

But again what does this actually mean now? A woman can have a penis, a man a vagina. If you have a penis you can now compete in the women's events in sports. i wonder where non binary athletes will be able to compete.

Cherries the cotton ceiling is the horribly oppressive barriers that is lesbian's panties, where penises aren't allowed in.

And yes, they want to break the cotton ceiling with their penises. I.e. rape.

It is vile and disgusting and I have nothing but contempt for anyone who has ever heard of it and still sides with the trans agenda.

perhaps if a male foetus is exposed to more estrogen than average at key points in development, or similarly a female one more testosterone, it would be possible for that child to look totally female or totally male but not feel that they are?

Sure, but then they would feel they should have another kind of body. That is totally out of fashion now.

Has anyone thought of the ramifications this would have for the whole 'gender reveal party' industry! Tens of people would be jobless. Won't you think of them?

why are you posting some randomer from twitter ? This is Mumsnet and there is a very good reasons why I am not in twitter !!!

They are not "some randomer" - Asia is an actor and has been on Ellen and has a sizable following