DH and DS have just had a fight

[OverTheHammer]

Don't know what to think. DS(16) has always had a strained relationship with DH (not his dad). He's cocky, bad tempered, constantly swearing, steals off us (money, cigarettes, alcohol etc).

Last night DS was in his room playing Xbox and talking loudly on his phone ffing and blinding. I first told him to be quiet at 11pm as I was going to bed. I then had to repeatedly shout and tell him off throughout the night. 2am DH gets pissed off and storms into his room and shouts at him to be quiet. DS was more or less laughing throughout.

DH was late for work this morning as a result of getting no sleep.

DS had his graduation today and has just come in and said "sorry about last night btw, can my late sleep?". I said No because of his behaviour last night. DH then starts on at him about his behaviour last night and telling him off. DS repeatedly argued that he didn't do what DH said he'd done. It got heated, they started shouting and then DS started squaring up to DH (who was sat down at the time). DH stood up and squared back up to him telling him to stop being ridiculous. DS pushes DH, it gets more heated and they start wrestling each other, DH pushes DS onto the sofa and pins him down, DS is shouting that he's a cunt and various other names, my eldest DS comes in at this point and tries to split them up. DH by this point has taken 3 punches to the face. When DH lets him up DS punches him again in the face. He has now done a runner with his mate whilst shouting CUNT down the driveway.

How the fuck do you deal with this?? This is not the first time DS has got violent btw, he's gone for DH numerous times and DS1.

DS1 has just let it slip that while we were away DS2 came in drunk, threw up in the living room and then punched DS1 who told him to clean it up whilst also threatening him with some random "mate" he's supposedly got in prison. So fed up and feel like giving up on him.

Same here Dixie, ds1 and 2. Ds1 isn't violent at all, but is almost more difficult to deal with as he's so demand avoidant. Ds2 is highly reactive and can be very violent, but is easier to get through to!

I agree with pp that your OH reacted poorly to an admittedly very difficult situation. You can't find yourself wrestling and physically fighting with a 16 year old, that's never going to turn out well.

It doesn't matter if it's happened 100 times before, your OH needs to find a different way to react as it doesn't sound like your DS is going to change much or quickly if he's got a disorder.

I don't have advice on what therapy etc would help but I would try to find ways to tell and show you love him, and won't give up on him no matter what.

My friend's son is like this and he's just broken her arm. Don't tolerate it. Please. We are all worried he could actually do her some serious harm. He needs boundaries and quickly or he will behave like this in the outside world and end up really hurting someone or in prison. Your job is to prepare him to be a grown up and without sounding really horrible he isn't ready yet.

Agree with the rational approach that the parents have to support the 16 year old.

Send him to his Dad's before he ruins his life and maybe someone else's.

His dad wont have him

Well his dad wont have any choice. He doesnt just get to say no. Pack his bags, drop them at your ex's and tell them both that he is now living there. What they do between them after that is up to them.

Can you contact the police, report what he has done, and ask them to find him alternative acomodation because you aren't safe with him in your home from him being violent? If they can remove a violent partner and prevent them returning the same should apply to a 6ft intimidating 16 year old who lashes out.

I think the police have more pressing issues to deal with tbh.

Your DS clearly has major issues. This hasn't happened overnight.

But

I think you and your DH handled this really badly. Your DH was clearly pissed off because he was late for work (that's his own fault, he's an adult and should have got up when he needed to, tired or not) and looking for an excuse to push back at your DS. Hence him over reacting...why square u to your DS? As for pinning him down, wtf? Is he actually trained in restraint technique? I fucking doubt it. And what on earth were you doing while this was happening, just watching??!

I've got 2 teens. They have been serious pains in the arse over the years. I also have a bf who means the world to me. But if things ever got to the stage he was squaring up to my son, or holding him down, that would be the end of it. I expect my bf to calm a situation, not fight fire with fire.

I've been reading a book which commented about fights and altercations, explaining that in a situation always assume that the dysfunctional one will not be the one who will step down, so to make sure that it will be up to the other to force themselves to be calm and back down (limited help in my family as most fights are between ds1 and 2 and neither are able to back down!)

Your dh needs to be the one to back down, as it sounds like ds isn't able to at the moment, and he will never learn better reactions if he isn't given the chance to react differently.

I would say PDA too. Why I've said about trying not to escalate situations. Hard as you must be at the end of your tether. My friend's son has some of this behaviour and is only 11. I worry for them both.

DS1 cannot remain living with you. Despite this incident, do you have any idea what DS2 will be going through knowing that he is not safe in the house with his own brother due to the prior incident? Nobody should live in fear of violence and I have seen what happens to people when they live with an abusive sibling and are in fear of being physically attacked and the ones who should be protecting them, ie their parents do nothing. It is horrible. I would absolutely call the police and get him arrested and cautioned if nothing else, then if he wants to behave like an unruly adult he will have to do it on his own terms and now go off and lead his own life. Physically attacking people and especially your own 'tribe' and it going without consequence just cant happen.

Thing is he most likely wouldn't have punched him in the face if the dh had handled it better

If this was said about a woman, the shouts of victim-blaming would be heard in the moon.

DH didn't handle it particularly well - he should have stayed out of it. But the 16 year old has the body and strength of a grown man and uses it to physically intimidate his family - he started this physical fight - he probably expected what had happened in the past which was no consequences to his physical lash out (did his brother hit back I wonder?). A response which includes any excuse for him doesn't do any favours. He behaved really badly the night before, he introduced the squaring up, he was physical, he steals, he lies, he takes drugs etc.

And I disagree that this isn't a pressing issue for the police. It is now or 4 years time when he will punch a stranger or a random person on the street or someone who looks funny at him in a bar or his girlfriend (by far the most likely).

Op you need to figure out the fastest way to get some help for this boy.

Your DH is escalating situations where de-escalation is required.
De-escalation does not mean being passive.
Your DH can't control his own reactions, he can't complain when your DS can't control his.
He may be 16 now and arguably an adult (which he isn't) but this has been going on for some time so it's been getting out of control when he was undoubtedly a child.

I think you and your DH need help to learn how to manage anger in yourselves and other people. I would enquire with CAHMS, your GP or SS to see if they run any parenting or anger courses in your area.
If you learn to respond better to him then he stands a chance of managing his own behaviour better.

Hit this head on with Police or threatening to throw him out is likely to destroy any relationship you have left.

OP I second involving the police. He's committed both theft and assault just from your first post and both are criminal matters. This is exactly the right time to do it as well, because any charges will be removed from his record once he's 18, so you're not condemning him to a record for life. If he carries on with this behaviour and even escalates it when he's older, that's when it becomes a lifetime issue.

Secondly, if you go to your local children's department and say that you refuse to have him in your home any longer, they have to find him an alternative. This may well be a young person's hostel, where he can access support and therapy not just have a roof over his head. The council will try all ways to persuade you to take him back, but stand your ground.

You've fought this for a very long time and tried everything possible. He doesn't respond to any sort of authority or control, and you, your DH and your DS1 cannot live in this atmosphere. You should feel safe and able to relax in your own home.

If someone pinned me to the sofa and refused to let me go I'd punch them in the face too.
What about all the other times he's been violent?

And DS started the violence this time too. Pinning him to the sofa, when he's becoming violent, doesn't seem totally inappropriate to me.

I have no idea what happened, but by the time they had finished with him, the cocky young thug had turned into a terrified little boy who was crying for his mum.

It probably wouldn't be allowed these days, but they put the fear of God into him and it straightened him out.

What a heart-warming story.

I fear for your son you have to take control and tell your husband to piss off. If you call the police from what you have said it won't look good. They will take his finger prints and put that to one side as a possible offender in the future. I struggle to get my dd into activities but you know what I do I leave her there because she's not old enough to dictate to me. I'm not sure what you can do with a 16 year old you've never been consistent with him and thats what he's learnt. I don't have a clue what its like bringing him up but you do and if you weren't persistent with getting a diagnosis or group activities you blame him for not wanting to go. You are now left with it and who knows what mh issues he displays later on but I do hope he can turn his life around. Life is all about paying bills, cooking, keeping a clean house. My partner has gone into a lot of properties and they're living in a shit hole. The mother goes in there to help clean up out of shear embarrassment because they never taught their children the basics.

My stepdaughter was very similar and she for a while was put in a secure unit for her own safety. After that she was put in residential sheltered housing that had very strict rules she had to abide by. It was dangerous for her to be with her mum as she was so out of control. I will check tomorrow how she was able to access the housing service and pm you. I'm not saying your son is like that but I think there are options.

Give over, victim blaming. If someone pinned me to the sofa and refused to let me go I'd punch them in the face too.

Well in this case you also started the fight so of course you'd throw a punch.

I think some posters will always see an adult male as always at fault hence the bizarre posts saying the DH has anger issues, the poor lad has had to live with a man who is awful to him etc. So of course his behaviour is utterly excusable - it is the adult male's fault.

In about 5 years time, this kid will be a fully adult male and the same posters saying "poor lad" will be condemning him roundly for any violence.

Op, is dh reasonable normally or does he usually escalate the situation?

Ask the police if they can talk to him in a you're lucky charges haven't been pressed, short off way. See if he can see the eventual consequence unless he shorts himself out.

He turned violent after he got pinned down before that he squared up to him and then Dh squared up to him. Then ds pushes her dh and then same back to ds. Then dh pins her ds to the chair and then her ds punches her dh.

WTF is that the whole thing sounds dysfunctional what a mess.