To think an amnesty needs to be made asap for Grenfall residents

[brexitstolemyfuture]

Mayor Kahan supports this but government officials haven't granted it yet. Surely these people have been through enough without persecution for subletting or visa issues!

Agreed Pea. It's about the residents who burned to death. They have to come first.

I think though that much of subletting is actuallly people who remain living in their flat and rent out a room to make ends meet.

Don't be ridiculous, squishysquirmy.

It's the people who were illegally subletting their flats that could end up being jammy sods because a) they weren't there and b) they get another flat to rent out

merry

Our immigration laws include clauses about being allowed amnesty in exceptional circumstances.

So the laws are being abided by.

you could assist the authorities by providing this information, probably anonymously

This is what the amnesty will achieve!

What happened was horrific but immigration laws should be abided by

You obviously don't actually know anything about immigration laws, because they allow for exceptions to be made in exceptional circumstances.

So is this just not exceptional enough for you? Or do you want a woman who threw her baby out a window, or watched her husband choke to death, to be deported next week? Is that justice?

thisgirl you couldn't do it anonymously because they would need to know which flat you are reporting about. That would be identifying.

I think there is some deliberate blurring of the issues here.

If people decide not to come forward to the authorities because of their immigration status, I'm not following how that means they can't let their relatives and friends know they are okay. Can someone explain that?

Also, people can come forward. We are a humane society. No-one will be mistreated. If people choose not to come forward, to avoid their immigration status being discovered, that is their choice.

I think though that much of subletting is actuallly people who remain living in their flat and rent out a room to make ends meet

I think you're right. So Mr X needs to know that he won't be prosecuted for reporting that couple Y were renting his spare room and are now missing, presumed dead.

And Mr B needs to know that his immigration status won't be a cause for concern - stopping him from reporting his wife and children as missing presumed dead.

*It's a generous and humanitarian idea, but what's to prevent other people with dubious immigration status from coming forward and claiming to have lived there, to get the benefit of the amnesty? It's not like anyone can prove it either way.

I agree with the principle but can't see how it can be applied in practice.*

This^

"Also, people can come forward. We are a humane society. No-one will be mistreated."

Well, apart from being deported......

The bigger 'crime' here is that this flat was turned into a flammable death trap. If criminal proceedings are brought then whoever was responsible should be held responsible for ALL those who died or were injured and amnesty can help this happen. People's deaths shouldn't go unacknowledged and unpunished because of their immigration status.

because they are dead CrossWord? makes communicating with friends and family quite challenging. Also because if they are alive, perhaps they don't have friends or family. And because the authorities need to know how many lives were lost to be accountable.

People who have seen their loved ones burnt to death in what looks to be an act of complete negligence, who saw warnings ignored, who experienced the total lack of support from the authorities in the immediate aftermath of the fire, may not be entirely reassured of what a humane society we are.

Also, people can come forward. We are a humane society. No-one will be mistreated. If people choose not to come forward, to avoid their immigration status being discovered, that is their choice.
CrossWordSalad - yes, absolutely agree.
Surely if someone lost a relative or friend the priority would be to find out what happened to them, not to worry about their immigration status being found out.

Ladyincement: "It's the people who were illegally subletting their flats that could end up being jammy sods because a) they weren't there and b) they get another flat to rent out"

I sort of think there is subletting, and there is subletting; A tenant who is living withing the property, and letting out a room to someone else is guilty of subletting, just as a tenant who is living elsewhere and making loads of money by filling a small property with dozens of desperate people in squalid living conditions.
The former group should (on this rare occasion) be granted amnesty and financial and relocation assistance.
The latter group is much more difficult to deal with: They should definitely be refused financial and relocation assistance. I do not like the idea of them being granted amnesty, and it would leave a very nasty taste in the mouth, but I can see the argument that it may be necessary (if they voluntarily come forward and admit the crime) in order to establish who was in the flat. I am not convinced this would be right, but I can understand the argument.

There are countless historical examples both in Britain and abroad when amnesty has been granted to those who really do not deserve it for pragmatic reasons. It is always controversial when this is done, and moral dilemmas do occur. The question of amnesty for Grenfell residents guilty of benefit fraud and illegal immigration is a more straightforward one I think, and one of those occasions when the morally right thing to do is also the pragmatic thing to do.

The need to establish all the facts of what happened is more than just a moral matter of justice for the residents, but will be crucial in restoring some of the trust that has been lost in the authorities, and important for civil peace.

To the OP - Yes

That depends where they might be deported back to. If I was worried about myself and surviving kids being sent back to Syria I'd probably keep quiet too.

What a fucking horrible set of opinions on this thread. Are people really this devoid of humanity and compassion?

No. And I loathe Khan.

Yes of course, in theory.

I worry about the practical ramifications though.

Obviously amnesty for those "missing presumed dead" or those having been treated in hospital.

The problem comes in an amnesty for those who escaped without requiring any hospital treatment - or who were lucky enough to be out when the fires happened.

There are scores of illegal immigrants who may well claim to have been renting a room in the tower block when they were not. They have already risked their lives to come here and may well be desperate enough to lie/bribe landlords to say they were subletting.

Look at the Ariana Grande concert - thousands of people pretended to have been at the concert in Manchester in order to get free tickets to the benefit concert - when they were nowhere near.

The stakes are far higher here, and people are desperate enough to try it.

So I would love to see an amnesty but I don't know how you do it without having lots of people claim to have been living there in order to fall under the amnesty.

Obviously someone who was renting a room to a lodger is not really subletting.

I think we're in agreement that the real sub letters should not in any way profit from this tragedy. I do see your point that in this case an amnesty would help identify those who may have actually been in the flat if someone without fear of prosecution could say, "I admit I wasn't living there but Family X."

But... that would not help the sub letter get a new flat, would it? And I fear some people are that greedy and immoral.

It's fine in theory to say 'they don't have to disclose their status' but how much trust do you think there is in our government, especially amongst people fleeing from war zones/dictatorships?

So is this just not exceptional enough for you? Or do you want a woman who threw her baby out a window, or watched her husband choke to death, to be deported next week? Is that justice?

The question was - should all Grenfell illegal immigrants be given automatic amnesty. I still say No. How authorities judge the each application is up to them but whereas I support immigration and incidentally don't think it needs to be massively curtailed, it does have to be legal.

Many illegal immigrants will have heartbreaking stories - should all the people who came over the Med and watched loved ones day get amnesty - again No.

'It does have to be legal'

A far bigger crime has been committed here. Allowing an amnesty for the bigger crime to be accurately investigated and punished is a small price to pay.