To think an amnesty needs to be made asap for Grenfall residents

[brexitstolemyfuture]

Mayor Kahan supports this but government officials haven't granted it yet. Surely these people have been through enough without persecution for subletting or visa issues!

in this case an amnesty would help identify those who may have actually been in the flat if someone without fear of prosecution could say, "I admit I wasn't living there but Family X."

But... that would not help the sub letter get a new flat, would it? And I fear some people are that greedy and immoral

And this, unfortunately, is exactly the reason why I'm not convinced an amnesty would be some kind of magic wand for increasing identification

Dreadful though it is, there will be some whose only concern will be how they can make the most out of this tragedy - and helping the investigation is hardly likely to be their priority

Amnesty - no questions will be asked wrt your immigration status.

Immunity - You are immune to charges for illegally entering the country and deportation.

So basically, they can come forward, receive help and no questions will be asked at this time if they later come to the attention of the authorities, they will not be immune to charges.

I'd just as happily support immunity in these circumstances.

So do they want people who were living somewhere else and had sublet their flat to come forward and tell them about the people they were subletting to who may have died? I can't see it working, as currently these people will just get another flat that they will also rent out. The govt can't give them an amnesty that keeps them in this position.

Tbh , I think it's a right wing view that Grenfell was stuffed with 'illegals'. Is there evidence to support this?

if it was, all that points out to me is the further incompetence and neglect of Kensington and Chelsea council who clearly allowed squalid and illegal living conditions to develop/ persist right under their noses, and cared not one hoot because those people 'deserve' to be in substandard housing...

People can be good, caring, responsible people and still come to a different conclusion about the best course of action ... Just trying to label people as uncaring because they are taking a different view is pretty crass

Beautifully put, CrossWord - and sadly something which is often forgotten on here

I feel like I've stumbled into the comments section of the Daily Mail.

The whole thing reeks of bitterness and jealousy, tbh. Jammy bastards, they got to die horribly in Zone 1 when poor, so unfair!

If there is an amnesty how do you prove who was really a victim and who is an opportunist?

crossword : read An Inspector Calls. Very clear on moral responsibility.

You probably won't agree with the viewpoint, being a Mrs Birling I suspect, but it should enlighten.

"Whoever the people were who questioned my loathing Khan: do I have to pretend I don't detest him just because he's a Muslim?"

No. But if you just say you loathe someone who does not appear to have done anything wrong, without explanation, people do tend to draw their own conclusions

So why do you loathe him?

So do they want people who were living somewhere else and had sublet their flat to come forward and tell them about the people they were subletting to who may have died?

Yes, and they will not be charged this time, if they do it again, they will be. Also, if they were living elsewhere, I very much doubt they will be eligible to be rehoused as they were not a resident of Grenfell at the time of the fire. They have a house. The one they are currently living in.

If they were subletting a room, they were a resident, will be entitled to be rehoused and will not be charged for subletting this time.

Do people really need this spelling out?

No-one is suggesting subletting be allowed to carry on without consequence.

Yes,

Why?

Because in order for the truth to come out for residents who were there legally it would be helpful to encourage all possible people who have evidence to come forward.

This also means that anyone who died because they were subletting illegally has a better chance of being identified.

Getting to the truth is better for anyone who uses social housing and gives an opportunity for serious questions about illegal sub-letting and why the current laws are currently failing.

This is a tragedy and whatever the rights or wrongs of those living in the building are, you have to deal with head on, instead of doing your best to ignore the reality and pretend its not your problem and responsibility. Having a very real public snapshot into that world is long overdue imo.

And yes we DO have a responsibility to people who come to the UK illegally though both domestic and foreign policy.

Isn't it the case that those people who haven't told the authorities about others who are missing presumed dead because they don't want to face the consequences of their own illegal subletting or immigration status are putting self-interest first?

Amnesty: "I know of 3 people illegally renting flat x" "How do you know that?" "I was illegally renting it too" "Thanks, you have admitted to breaking a law but this specific info you have voluntarily provided will not be used to prosecute you" - ie, the person has not dobbed themselves in.

Immunity: "I have committed a crime but claim to be a former resident of Grenfell, so wish to be permanently immune from prosecution for this crime".

Surely you can see the difference?

Isn't it the case that those people who haven't told the authorities about others who are missing presumed dead because they don't want to face the consequences of their own illegal subletting or immigration status are putting self-interest first?

Yes it is the case. I mean, why wouldn't they want to risk being deported to Syria or the like where they might be thrown off a building by ISIS, gassed by Assad or have bombs dropped on them by the US, UK and Russia?

How very selfish of them.

This thread You can disagree about an amnesty without making disgusting remarks about people being burned to death being their fault because they broke the law. I think illegal subletting is wrong, of course it is but this is a difficult matter and exceptional circumstances.

FFS...no. Of course not.

they will not be charged this time, if they do it again, they will be

I don't pretend any special legal knowledge, but I'm not sure how this would work in practice given that a precedent would have been set?

Of course they should and I've thought this all along. There will have been some people in that block who will be scared to come forward - quite possibly people who are fully 'legal' but aren't sure about what sort of reception or treatment they'll get.

And how in hell's name are they supposed to 'identify their dead'?

As for the people thinking it'll set some kind of precedent...you do realise the whole issue is that this should never happen again, don't you?

puzzled as many people have said above, there are laws in place that allow people who have come here illegally to be granted amnesties.

No precedent would be set.

MotherOfBleach So if a non-resident comes forward they won't be charged, but they also won't get a new flat. If they don't come forward they'll get a new flat. I don't think the amnesty will encourage many to come forward.

Puzzled, there are already many precedents for amnesty being granted in exceptional circumstances.

"given that a precedent would have been set"
*Puzzle are you truly and really unable to see that this is a unique (hopefully) situation? How many tower blocks have burnt down in this manner before? And shouldn't we ensure that his never happens again?

""Terrible tragedy but people have committed a crime either by being here illegally or subletting. I don't want that behaviour rewarded. There are two different issues here - of course the victims should get help but that does not mean bypassing immigration laws that everyone else has to abide by.

If you normalise this then what happens is that it happens again and again and you create even more victims and exploitation in the future both exploitation of the legal system and exploitation of tenants by horrible immoral landlords""

^ This

Soot as terrible as that is, it's down to luck. The residents, illegal or otherwise, of Grenfell were occupying a dangerous building. These deaths could have been prevented. I believe the law let them down, the cladding should have been illegal by now, so I'd agree, they ought to be protected.

There is already a precedent to give amnesty and/or immunity for one crime in certain circumstances but not have that extend to future crimes of a similar nature.

It's often used in criminal cases. The 'lesser' criminal will be given immunity in exchange for testifying in court or giving information in order to secure a conviction against the 'bigger' criminal. It doesn't mean that the lesser criminal can then go on and commit the same crime and not be punished.

Similar with amnesties, if you came forward during a weapon amnesty and handed in your illegal firearm, that does not mean that if you found with an illegal firearm in the future, you will not be charged.

So, if a subletter comes forward this time, they will not be charged. If they are caught subletting again, they will be.

If an illegal migrant comes forward to give the names of his friends who died in the fire, he will not be detained and deported this time. If he is then caught working in the local chippy and still has not put forward his refugee claim, he will be detained and deported.

Although, I would personally like to see all victims be granted asylum in the UK. They have suffered enough.

The subletters should face the consequences if they do it again.