Grenfell tower exposes stark inequalities in our society.

[thinkiamgoingcrazy]

In the new luxury block some of the Grenfell residents have been rehoused in, 3 flats put together are "worth" an eye watering 5 million pounds. The same amount of money as the government has pledged for the Grenfell victims.

What is the matter with our society that such vast inequalities are able to exist? When did London become an investment bank for the rich rather than somewhere for its citizens to live with dignity ?

[Why are there some "private" squares in London where the benches have plaques on them reading that they are only for the patrons of the nearby hotel ?]

Why are we such an unequal society in general with a massive gap in earnings, and a tiny precentage of our population owning such a huge amount of our wealth?

I don't think that this is a dignified or progressive way to live. Nothing against capitalism, but ffs it can't be allowed to do its rampant worst. IMO.

Why do so many people who are in work not have enough money to live?

Hundreds of reasons, they may work few hours, live in an area their salary does not extend too, believe they are entitled to x, y and z, have children they couldn't afford etc.

Far too simplistic to say wages are too low. Some jobs require no skill or effort so don't warrant a high salary.

Lots of people manage to live within their means by making wise choices, lots get the things in life they want through sheer hard work and determination. Some will have had it handed to them on a plate at the top end but that's no different than the bottom end where people don't work and get everything paid for.

I can see both sides of the coin. I hate that the victims are all being tarred with the same brush without actually any evidence.

I'm sure they will be some good tenants and they deserve a break after what's happened to them.

However I've friends who have scrimped and saved to get on the property ladder to have social tenants moved in next door and trash their gardens, take down their garden fences and burn them and generally remove any additional value the house had/push them into negative equity.

You only have to read some of the threads on here to see it's quite a common issue, particularly with any drink and substance issues, and even cultural issues.

A lot of developments in my area have to have x amount of social housing and developers are withdrawing because they can't recoup on the "luxurious" flats they intend to build. Which is both very says but also very understandable. Why would you save up and get a mortgage for £400,000 and someone get an identical place for next to nothing rent next door? You'd be pretty miffed wouldn't you?

I'm sure The ES has also screwed about with the quotes as well as part of George's vendetta against Theresa. I'm pretty certain for ever negative comment taken out of context there's 5+ of positivity.

*both very sad for the housing crisis

Yes the public sector having a pay increase of 1% after years of a pay freeze against inflation rises seems to be ignored a lot.

Compare that against private sector salaries.

It would be nice to think once they've privatised all public services then the wages will align themselves with this.

Truth more likely is they'll continue as they are whilst the private services run the NHS and education etc for profit and pay those on top larger salaries.

It's already happening in academy schools and will spread.
Problem is the education is academies in generally dire because they are silently selective and therefore you'll get an increased number of the future workforce disenfranchised before they even get a chance to earn. And probably start seeing the number of high paid jobs going to those in private sector education - rather than privatised - and so the circle continues.

That link that going crazy linked to : had some interesting posts.
We should be sympathetic and have empathy to tragedy, when people have lost everything.

But I do agree that the money could have been used more wisely? JCorbyn suggested the people needed to be housed asap. Of course. But why not buy/use other houses to house 30 or 50 families, instead of spending billions on 10 luxury apartments?

That's not what's happening, though. These flats were already designated "affordable" and were always going to be transferred. Be careful of the spin.

Were they meant to be affordable for key workers etc? Or designed for social housing specifically?

I'm flabbergasted at how many people on this thread grasp the concept of capitalism = money and not concurrently that it's (more or less) a pyramid of inequality, meaning however hard you work, not everyone will be able to rise to the top. It's not a meritocracy; that's something completely different. If it was then there wouldn't be a disproportionate number of private school students at university compared to state school students.

A more realistic (and ethical, for those throwing that word around) approach would be to recognise the above and have some good checks and balances on capitalism to ensure such massive inequality of wealth doesn't run rampant. I'm a higher rate taxpayer, we are comfortable and I would happily pay more tax because I recognise that a) I wouldn't have got here without free school, child benefit (supporting my parents to afford to live), lowered university fees (£3k pa) and grants and b) whilst I work hard I am lucky enough by accident of birth to have grown up in a stable, secure home and have scored well in academic assessments. All these things have contributed to my success - I know plenty of people who work hard and aren't on the same economic footing.

It really really bothers me when people don't acknowledge that luck/accident of birth has as much to do with it as hard work

It makes me ashamed to read some of the reports about the accommodation some of these victims will live in. Only a week ago the vast majority seemed to be supportive of these victims and horrified by what happened to them.

A week later and the press are doing their best to stir it all up and individuals with little compassion are seething with rage that these poor people may get some where nice to live.

an you name me one country on Earth where every single person is equal in terms of their wealth / housing / access to free medical care?

North Korea, comrade.

I'm going to give you an anecdotal story of me and a close friend, who bemoans constantly that she cant afford to buy a house because of 'the tories' .

She's 40, had a child , father didn't stick around, she moved back home with mum and dad, reduced her hours, and dare I mention it, lied about where she was living so she could maximise tax credits and housing benefit. So she had the benefit of (a) reduced hours (b) shit loads of tax credits (c) 3 very supportive adults to a 1 child ratio in bringing him up. You would agree, not a stressful life on the whole? Shes had a day off a week to indulge her creative side, be indispensable to the PTA, do her little cash in hand side line.

A normal person would have banked the not inconsiderable surplus cash and created a house deposit out of that.

The difference is: when I had my children, I went immediately back to work to keep a roof over their head, I didn't sit back and let my parents parent my child, financially be subsidised by parents and state, etc.

To cap it all, she has a new partner, new baby, they are renting a flat (way too small but it's all she can afford) he is on stupidly poor money so he's giving up his full time job and getting 14 hours a week with the local council in equally shit pay because taadaa* the magic tax credits and housing benefit come into play. People should not be allowed to downsize their employment so the state picks up the tab, welfare was meant as a safety net not a life style choice.

I really do fail to see why she thinks it's anything other than her fault because of the life choices she made and priorities she has for her money.

I think the thing is, that people are not equally able / talented / motivated / intelligent. Not everyone can be a brain surgeon and so isn't it right that not everyone should expect the trappings of success that being a brain surgeon brings?

Oblomov they haven't spent "billions on 10 flats*.

Anything the council buys for these people will cost millions because Kensington is he most expensive parts of the London. The council have a surplus of £300 million sat in the bank so they can well afford to spend millions rehiring these people. And they have been rightly promised they will be rehoused in Kensington, near their schools, friends, and work, so no one should suggest they are housed in cheaper areas.

Can you name me one country on Earth where every single person is equal in terms of their wealth / housing / access to free medical care

No but there are countries where there is more equality. The Scandinavian countries are usually held up as beacons of social justice. I'm sure all is not perfect but they are happy to pay more tax in order to offer better public services. But here people just threaten to leave the country if anyone suggests that they should be contributing more (and that goes for companies as well as individuals).

Most people do not do well simply because they work hard. They do well because they are lucky. Lucky to have intelligence, lucky to have drive, lucky to have opportunities that pop up at the right time or to have the networking skills to find such opportunities. Lucky not to have a sick child or relative that requires their attention rather than earning money. Luck plays a big role. Of course you have to make the most of your talents, but lets not pretend that those of us don't need to worry about where our next meal comes from are in way superior to those who do. There but for the grace of God etc.

Yes because worrying about inequality = wanting everyone to have the same lifestyle as a brain surgeon.
Unbelievable.

I don't hold out much hope for now, twenty years time maybe.

stilldriving, your mate is your mate, she may well be wrong!!! It doesn't mean that inequality is right 😊

stillbonkers if you are talking about saving a home deposit from "shit loads of tax credits", I presume you live in an extremely cheap area, because otherwise you are deluded.

So equally, why is the brain surgeon more deserving of security and comfort (which is the essence of what we are talking about) than the chap who cleans the theatres and hospital floors, simply due to a quirk of fate? Due to the comparative luck of birth?

optimistic, what are you on? Where has anyone said we all deserve the trappings of a brain surgeon lifestyle? Maybe the right to live in a house that is safe is not too much to ask.

Of course people have different academic, sporting, musical etc talents.

The point is that where and when you were born, and the economic status of your parents or carers are, by far, the dominant influences in your later 'success' or not.

That's why people like Boris Johnson can continue making mistakes, being incompetent and never worry about the possibility of being poor, whilst a nurse who is very competent and hard working can still not be able to sleep at night for worrying about where her next rent payment is coming from or how to feed her family.

London is a people magnet and where there are large collections of differently motivated people, there is often trouble. There is also property wealth owing to large numbers of people needing to be crammed together in a small space.

If everyone in the world was made completely equal tomorrow, inequalities would already be visible the day after.

What actually needs to change though? No party who wants to raise taxes will ever be voted into government so that's out.

What needs to change is priorities about public money is spent, which requires a significant change in attitude to people who weren't born into privilege is most of us.

IfYouGoDownToTheWoodsToday

10 years at just shy of 800 month? I'd call that a fair old whack. I know because we earn the same basic salary. I realise that has changed now, but this was the situation 3 years ago prior to her new relationship (which she still doesn't fully declare, so reaps the added benefit of single council tax discount etc)

Also agree that this is a very "London" issue and people who live there are quite blinkered often as to what's going on outside the M25 where house prices aren't quite so mental.

I am not a socialist - I do not think that everyone is the same, everyone should have the same. I also think that the opportunities are out there for grabbing but some people are lacking the motivation gene and really can't be bothered. I work for myself - being self-employed is all about being proactive and seeking out work but there is a section of the population who expects everything to fall in their laps with the minimum of effort.

If housing in London is becoming a real issue, then I'd support measures such as they have in Sydney, aimed at tackling foreign residents investing in property as an asset, without any intention of living there. www.ft.com/content/5cc20af6-4674-11e7-8519-9f94ee97d996