Grenfell tower exposes stark inequalities in our society.

[thinkiamgoingcrazy]

In the new luxury block some of the Grenfell residents have been rehoused in, 3 flats put together are "worth" an eye watering 5 million pounds. The same amount of money as the government has pledged for the Grenfell victims.

What is the matter with our society that such vast inequalities are able to exist? When did London become an investment bank for the rich rather than somewhere for its citizens to live with dignity ?

[Why are there some "private" squares in London where the benches have plaques on them reading that they are only for the patrons of the nearby hotel ?]

Why are we such an unequal society in general with a massive gap in earnings, and a tiny precentage of our population owning such a huge amount of our wealth?

I don't think that this is a dignified or progressive way to live. Nothing against capitalism, but ffs it can't be allowed to do its rampant worst. IMO.

So isn't that the very definition of inequality- whether geographic or demographic! It's something we need to work on surely

There were over 600 people registered as living in Grenfell Tower. There will have been many more.

It's absolutely crazy to speak about the lived experiences of inequality of 'people in Grenfell Tower', as there would have been so many, including working poor.

We know that Communism doesn't work, and we know that Capitalism doesn't work - with both some people get rich and others have middling lives and others are in poverty... but of the two - the attitudes of the socialists are worse to deal with - spending their time looking how to control / take away / not allow - whereas capitalism is a culture of allowing enabling / etc.

it is notable that no society has overthrown capitalism to put in communism - plenty have done the opposite.

so, what we need to do is to look at why capitalism fails some - and deal with that - not change the whole system, but bring up the people so that no-one falls outside decent living conditions (UK and worldwide) - quite honestly it doesn't both me if there are people with Billions / lots of houses / etc. if and only if we can allow that without having others living in abject poverty / without clean water / without decent housing / etc... in fact having lots of money can bring as many stresses as it relieves - I know wealthy people who don't know who to trust / drive around in armoured cars and with security guards because their life is always under threat / etc. - being wealthy is not always a good thing...

so the key lesson from this is not lets get rid of the wealthy (in fact wealth creation supports a nation as has been shown many times) but lets tackle poverty and deprivation

Christina
they all have something in common though, they all lived in social housing.Thou the millions of assumptions about them (not working etc) and the wording (migrants, unemployed).
If they lived in a private luxury block
they would have been 'expats' for example, not immigrants

flying is right! I am from the North East originally and we have relatives in Yorkshire and other places. A few social housing tenants in London are not really indicative or illustrative of most people across the UK. You can buy the house my mother grew up in for £47k today in the UK in the NE.

I wish people would stop denying the problems with social housing exist.
I lived in a block for years. Rubbish thrown from Windows, piss in the stairwells, resident arsonist setting fire to the piles of rubbish, booming music, theft, phlegm all over the lift buttons, elderly afraid to open the front door, my car had it's windscreen smashed, (5 cars got done that night) human shit smeared all over the lift and lobby walls, drug gangs operating from illegally sublet flats etc. Etc.
It wasn't even in a large city, it's a bloody commuter town.
There is no way on earth I would ever move back near to social housing unless I was destitute.

I don't think anyone agrees inequality is right.

But we need to be careful we don't equate inequality with wage differences.

Whoever pointed out above about surgeons etc is right. Some jobs will attract a greater pay packet and that is correct. The level of study and skill requires for those roles is incomparable a few a levels and a typical degree.

However we DO need to look at inequality at the lower income end and how and why people who work etc are being priced out of living in certain areas and the inequality of that.

Because let's face it - ALL jobs are necessary to society. Whether you work in Poundland or Tesco, drive a bus or perform brain surgery - you are needed in London and the SE where rents are extortionate and saying people need to live somewhere cheaper if they can't afford the rent is extremely blind sighted.
Because who would work the low paid jobs in these high rent areas of only the high earners lived there?

Trent I agree that policing, and strict enforcement of communal rules of living needs to happen.
But once evicted where will the incapable be housed. Maybe housing for this subgroup needs to be addressed.

Laquitar. They didn't even all live in social housing. Many were living in properties bought by buy to let landlords.

Rather than debate the term 'inequality', maybe it's more fruitful to start with a baseline of what humans who live in and contribute to the 5th wealthiest country in the world can reasonably expect:-

So on very practical level:-
safe, decent housing
access to health care which is free at the point of delivery
access to decent education which is free at the point of delivery
adequate income to live with a dignity and some choice

Surely, these things are just the material basics of a civilised society, aren't they?

Rather than debate the term 'inequality', maybe it's more fruitful to start with a baseline of what humans who live in and contribute to the 5th wealthiest country in the world can reasonably expect

^ This.

While some of you are discussing the unfairness of people getting free houses when brain surgeons have worked harder others are worrying over whether they're going to be able to afford to keep the gas connected and where their kids are gonna bathe if they have it switched off.

That should not be happening in the UK in 2017.

Of course cleaners and other low paid workers shouldn't be able to afford the lifestyle a brain surgeon has but they should be able to feed, heat and clothe their kids without worrying, as should people who are unemployed.

Instead of dismantling the pyramid and turning it into a line, can't we just raise the foundations a bit? Make it a little less tall and pointy?

It is possible to feed,clothe and heat your children on benefits. If you decide you can't live without an IPhone or other lifestyle choices then it becomes more difficult.Can't guarantee re worrying but then along with the vast majority I worry that we'll lose our jobs or the bolier/ car will pack up. Worry is part of life.

I really think both sides to this debate each hold some relevancy and all perspectives deserve to be reflected on.

However, having said that, YANBU. The berth of the socio-economic divide in this country is diabolical and ought to be a priority for any government of the day, in the modern era we live in.

Out2pasture

Trent I agree that policing, and strict enforcement of communal rules of living needs to happen.
But once evicted where will the incapable be housed. Maybe housing for this subgroup needs to be addressed.

It really does. There was an elderly couple that lived on the 8th floor, they walked into those flats the day they were finished and chose the one they wanted. It was clean, tidy, spacious, bright and the flats were sought after.
All social housing. People took pride in the block, would Hoover the carpeted lobbies, keep their front door spic and span, the lifts were clean, the rubbish chutes never blocked, there was a real community of little families interspersed with the elderly and single young men living in the studio flats.
When I left there, that couple were scared to go outside, they spent their life savings on a modest but brand new car to "see them out" it was stolen and burnt out. I've never seen such defeat and sadness in someone's eyes. They were just existing. There was no life left in them. All because of the scumbags that are allowed to make other people's lives a misery.
There are no consequences. If someone is evicted from housing due to behaviour, why the fuck are the council obliged to house them again? They just end up ruining more lives.
I have no idea what the answers are regarding housing, but I will always be of the "as far away from me as possible" mindset now.

I am a higher-rate tax payer, work full time and own the house I live in on a nice road. House need a lot of work which I don't have time/moeny to sort out. House next door is divided into 2 flats, one of which is owned by a single mum of two kids who, as far as I can tell, has never worked, and spends most the days smoking dope and playing loud music. As she doesn't work she has lots of time at home with her kids (if she wanted to spend it) and has a similar lifestyle to mine. Only difference is I work my arse off to pay for it and get taxed royally for my efforts.

maybe it's more fruitful to start with a baseline of what humans who live in and contribute to the 5th wealthiest country in the world can reasonably expect

Hell yes!

Sorry, the lady in question doesn't own it. It's social housing which she rents.

Sure not everyone is. The person who lives next to me is most definitely antisocial though. We (and our neighhours) have wafts of cannabis coming through the floor boards.

[Why are there some "private" squares in London where the benches have plaques on them reading that they are only for the patrons of the nearby hotel ?]

Oh how truly appalling. How dare any one have access to something nice which isn't available for all.

The city I live in also has locked private gardens which are owned communally by all the houses and flats in the relevant streets. Many of the flats have no or very small gardens so these gardens operate as the gardens for the whole street. They are private gardens in the same way the garden attached to any house is. Your comment is ridiculous.

It's not about begrudging people their success - I am not sure why some people are taking it this way?

Oh ha ha.

I hate to agree with the stereotypes but there is truth in a lot of them. We lived in a council flat in a tower block, to get in the block you needed a pass card, so only people living there & their visitors could get in. Everyday someone would piss in the lift, that's the lift taking them to their own home. The man above us had 4 massive dogs that made unbearable noise, when he finished his dinner he would scrape the plate out of the window meaning I could never have my window open as it would be hit by his dinner on its way down. The woman next door was generally drunk at 10am & played loud music all the time.Most of the kids were feral, bins were regularly set alight, stuff smashed up. Rubbish was left outside front doors because people were too lazy to walk 10 steps to the chute, I could go on & on. Not everyone in the block was like it but enough were to make it an unbearable place to live.
It's time we tackled homelessness, poor housing & inequality but it's also time we made people realise that they do have some responsibility for their own life & surroundings.
The flat we had was a lovely flat, the block had recently been decorated, the lifts were always working & the rent compared to market rates was a pittance - the people living there were the problem.

You might have bought a "public space", but the civic thing would be to allow access to it to everyone. Would a hotel guest really ask someone outside to get off a bench? It's not the hotel's private garden

You have no idea what you are talking about.

The hotel did not buy a public space. They bought private land.
It is the hotel's garden.

We get this sort of nonsense from time to time about the Edinburgh locked gardens (despite Edinburgh being awash with public gardens) What you are demanding is as daft as saying everyone should be able to access anyone's garden.

Oh for goodness sake. We know there are problems in society. We know some people who live in social housing don't treat it right. We know that some people do. I think we can all agree we need a higher level of supervision if social housing which will ensure that all social rules are followed and also will ensure that safety etc rules are followed. The whole point is that successive governments have allowed some estates to go downhill. The institution of right to buy also meant that those that could buy did buy, and so often it is the most vulnerable as well as the most profligate who are left behind. None of this is right. Add this to a social policy where people with mental health issues are not supported, a social work and health system which is cut to the bone- and cue where we are now. It all needs a bit more care. It's not just money; it's how we use that money.

how can you possibly blame the government for people's anti social behaviour...

That's part of the problem, it's always someone else's fault, the government, the council, the police, the teachers , the rich, the bankers, Europe, the politicians...

Yes some have mental health problem that need more support then they get, but the majority don't, they take the easy option of not taking any responsibility for themselves.

I posted earlier - I think it was on this thread - that there needs to be a "Bottom option" below social housing. If people abuse their tenancy they're out. Obviously not on the street but some sort of dormitory affairs - yes, even the workhouse. It is absolutely unfair on people who are trying to live in a decent and cohesive manner when other tenants can openly deal drugs, urinate and defecate in communal areas, spit, play loud music, throw rubbish out of the windows etc etc.

I also don't understand why the Grenfell tenants are automatically "poor". Unless you are ill/disabled/elderly you can walk down the road and get 20 jobs. And, like the Italian architect couple, even two professional salaries does not get you much better than Grenfell tower. No ordinary people live in houses in Kensington. Ordinary people live in places like I do, shuffling in and out of London on public transport with as much chance of getting a zone 1 property as flying to the moon.