to ask if I'm being cruel to my children?

[Busybecca]

We have two daughters, aged 4 and 3. DH and I have fallen out tonight after he told me he thought I was cruel to the girls. DH and I differ in that I want to encourage the girls to be independent and he likes to baby them.

He works four days per week 9-5 so he isn't trying to make up for his absence or anything, but it's becoming unbearable when the four of us are together and I think our different approaches are totally unfair on and confusing to the children.

DH will hand feed them. Lift them on and off the toilet and wipe their bums. Put their shoes and clothes on and take them off for them. Put their rubbish in the bin for them. He pretty much does what they say, when they say it or else they're crying and whinging.

DD1 today went on the trampoline at the bottom of the garden then called to be lifted down. I called "use the ladder" but DH went running down the garden to lift her down Later he was upstairs and she came inside and called up to him to come and take her shoes off for her and he did! At tea time I called up to DD2 that tea was ready and she called DH to carry her downstairs, which he did. I asked her to wash her hands and she called him to turn the tap on for her, then to get the soap out for her, then to pass her the towel.

When it's just me and the girls they are fully capable of doing all of the above for themselves and they are happy to do so. When he is here they're whiny, bossy and demanding and I don't enjoy family time at all because of that. They don't listen to DH if he asks them to do anything, they just order him around.

Tonight DD1 said she needed a tissue. She was standing outside the bathroom door, I was washing up and DH was upstairs. I replied 'there's tissue in the bathroom.' She started calling to DH to get her a tissue and Lo and behold he came running downstairs to do so. Then he went in the shower and she sneezed again and was calling at him to fetch her a tissue. I told her she was more than capable of getting it herself and that he couldn't hear her because he was in the shower. She started screaming and crying for him to do it now and after a couple of minutes he got out of the shower to see what the matter was - hence me being called cruel for not getting her a tissue.

It's getting to the stage where they're a total pain in the arse on his first day back to work and I have to 'reset' them to realise they're capable of everything above. The following day they're back to normal and much happier but still DH will go back to being at their beck and call in the evening which just leads to tantrum after tantrum.

AIBU to think we can't go on like this or am I indeed cruel?

Agreed, very good posts from math. The impression I get from the OP is that once her children have mastered something (getting on the trampoline) they can never look to her for help with that thing ever again. I find that neither realistic, kind or helpful, any more than one could argue that her DH is.

Excellent posts math...Have picked up a few tips myself there!

This isn't being babied sometimes though. It is all the time by the dad. It is normal for young children to want to be babied sometimes - particularly when there is a new sibling. But to order one parent to constantly play servant is not normal.
The fact the children can do the things they can do is solely down to their mother allowing them the chance and the practice. As pps have pointed out when both parents behave like the dh is doing children can struggle very much indeed with learning independent skills.
Suggesting the op should be the only one to address the rudeness to the children's father is odd. Why can't the dh do it? Or at least both of them. Very unfair to expect the op to take on 100% of the discipline while the dh stands by and calls her cruel.

Well set out Math. And even in adulthood, supporting a little bit of "regression" to an earlier age is one of the ways that we show people that we love and care for them - hence the baby names some couples keep for tender moments, or the warmth of doing something for someone that they are perfectly able to do for themselves - even making someone a cup of tea - or the silly games we like to play with loved ones at Christmas and special occasions.
It's really important to teach children to do the things they'll need to do in life - and if you were both babying them all the time it would be, as several posters have pointed out - a failure of parenting. But if championing independence is a "one way street" - without the leavening of celebrating them as children as well - the pressure for independence can be a wedge that you drive between yourself and them. They are so little now and adolescence seems a long time away - but childhood goes so fast, and there will come that time when the challenges facing them are so much greater than putting on their own clothes or wiping their own bottoms. They will need you then, just as they do now, and you won't want them, through all the years of being "big grown up independent girls", to have lost the belief that you are the natural person to turn to for help when they have problems, or the awareness that they are still, despite all their clever, independent, skills, really children.

So you think it's a healthy dynamic for the dad to be telling the mum she's cruel in front of the children and for the op to have to swoop in and do all the discipline even when it's not a situation she's involved in? A little bit of babying I have no problem with and agree it is affectionate. I still swaddle my 9yr old up and rock her sometimes. But rushing downstairs to pick something up that is next to your child? Lifting them on and off the loo and pulling their pants up and down - not as a one off but all the time? The children may love that they can speak to their dad how they like and make him do anything but the message he is actually sending is that he doesn't see them as capable of things and has very low expectations of them.

OP can you get DH to reduce his slavish attention to your DD one thing at a time? Perhaps put an end to hand feeding for a start. Can he sometimes be busy elsewhere in the house when they yell for unnecessary help? You'll doubtless both gave to endure yelling and screaming but things nay improve in. Few days if it's ignored.
I'm wondering how this situation built up over the last few years. Presumably he was cooperative when they stopped having bottles, stopped wearing nappies, learnt to walk and to ride their bicycles.
I hope there's a change, soon!

I'm happy to baby them in an affectionate way - like wrapping them up and carrying them from the bath - but some things are just not practical. The lifting down from the trampoline, for example. They often play on it while I'm cooking dinner. If I had to go out every two minutes to get them up and down then dinner would never get cooked, so I don't think it's unfair of me to tell them that if they can't get up and down themselves then don't use it. I do reprimand them for being rude to DH but the fact that he doesn't means they continue to do it to him but not me or anybody else.

The issue isn't what these kids can or can not do themselves -

The issue is that DH 'helps' but gets cross with OP when she 'doesnt' even though she knows the SD can get a tissue - she can get on the toilet - she can get off the trampoline

HES the issue - and he needs to step up and sort himself out - not OP

Did he say that in front of the girls, Corbyns?
I have read over all the OP's posts to check, and I do not think that was the case.

Busybecca
The following day when he was up and about, the day started with them both screaming at him from bed to carry them to the toilet. Then they were arguing with one another over who he was going to dress first. They both refused to walk downstairs, wash their own hands, put thrir shoes on and demanded he spoon feed them their cereal. When we left they both whinged that their legs were too tired so he tried alternating pushing them both on their bikes but whichever one he wasn't pushing was screaming and stopping and crying. I didn't say or infer 'I told you so' but he was just excusing their behaviour and saying they were just tired
....
I do reprimand them for being rude to DH but the fact that he doesn't means they continue to do it to him but not me or anybody else.

You have been very effective in everything else you have tried to teach the girls, so I suggest you have not really tried to reprimand them for rudeness, whinging, screaming, etc at your husband.

In the above incident you do not mention any reprimand at all but the unpleasantness clearly went on for a long period of time.
.......
I can't do it for him or they'll have even less respect for him than they do now - if that's even possible.
Actually, the opposite is true.

Right now the girls know that you will not treat them the way daddy does and he will not treat them the way you do. They may well have picked up that you have hoiked your judgy pants when it comes to dad's ability to wrangle them out to school. It was clear to him that you had found him lacking or he would not have tried to offer excuses for their behaviour. Children soak up the atmosphere between parents.

They know they are living in a conflict zone. They are misbehaving for dad's benefit because he is softer than you are, the same way that children normally misbehave at home for both parents even when they behave perfectly in school. They are letting their hair down in spectacular fashion. Many parents are surprised that their Little Miss Hell On Wheels is Little Miss All Around Good Egg in school. In your girls' case the misbehaviour you are describing is extreme. You have to show them that there is no conflict by demonstrating kindness, affection and devotion to your DH for their benefit.

You also have to teach them that the way they are treating their dad is not on and will not be tolerated. You have to teach them to speak politely and to say thank you to him. (Again, it is fine for them to ask him to get a tissue or to help them off the trampoline as long as the request is polite, as long as they say please, and thank.)

So you think it's a healthy dynamic ...for the op to have to swoop in and do all the discipline even when it's not a situation she's involved in? [Corbyns]

She is involved up to her neck in this situation. It is as much her doing as it is her H's. Both parents here have chosen to follow diametric opposites of each other's approach to parenting, perhaps in reaction to each other. Both are motivated by anxiety about the effect the other is having on the girls. Neither one is 100% right. Both need to compromise. Both need to address their anxiety. It will take a true adult to stop the madness and begin teaching the girls how to treat others.

They are currently engaged in trench warfare where the OP has actually gone so far as to set up a situation where she ended up restraining herself from saying 'I told you so' to him, trying to prove to him that her way was 'the right way' and his way is 'the wrong way', and he for his part has gone so far as to call her 'cruel' because he believes her way is 'the wrong way' and his is 'the right way'.
Neither one of these parents comes away looking good in these anecdotes.

This situation can resolve itself in one of two ways -

(1) The standoff can continue and the damage to the girls can mount.

Or (2) one of the grown ups here can climb down off his/her high horse and try something different that is very much needed here, i.e. to adopt the role of leader and to stop trying to 'win'.

Nobody can win, but the ultimate losers if they continue to play this dangerous game of chicken will be the two little girls who have enormous emotional needs that are being ignored.

Why on earth are you persisting to have a go at the op for not reprimanding the children 'properly' when they are rude to their father when he is doing absolutely nothing himself to correct the behaviour? Bizarre

And not only is he refusing to discipline his children but by doing things for them anyway when he has been asked rudely/screamed at and the children been told off by their mum he is actively undermining her trying to discipline them.
The dad is an adult and a parent. There is no reason why discipline should be delegated to the op.

I think math is not looking at who's right between mum and dad, but what is right for these children.

Also, the OP has said that her DH's attitude causes her problems but then later says that the children don't do this with her or others, just DH. Which is it?

To be honest there is so little context here is hard to say strongly either way. But I'm getting the impression the OP isn't interested in providing context or doing anything other than thinking she's right, DH is wrong (and, to be fair, most PPs aren't interested in that either). Which begs the question why post in AIBU.

How is the op reprimanding the kids more strongly while the dh says nothing and continues to do as he's told going to help the children at all?

In and of itself it isn't, but it's worth noting that until asked she came across as passively watching these interactions.

But both parents need to look at their actions, not just the DH. He isn't acting in a vacuum. Has he always been like this? If not, what's changed? Is there something in the way he was brought up that's causing him to act like this? Did the OP take very firm control right from the start and not allow her DH to develop as a parent, is he now trying to get some control back? Can he see the consequences of his actions? Lots of questions.

Obviously, all posts on MN are from one point of view but this one particularly comes across as needing the other side, that there's potentially a lot more to it.

On a personal note, I have no doubt that many MNers would think that we baby DD. We helped her dress herself until she was over 7. We knew she could do it, she was fine at school and did it at the weekends, but before school she struggled (not a morning person at all!) so we helped, even though there was no 'need'. She's back to having 'baby' books read to her at bedtime because for some reason she's taken against chapter books, even though she's been reading them for a while. Should I say I'm not reading those? And she knows that DH is more of a soft touch than me but it doesn't matter because she knows my limits are different from his.

Finally, DH a made a very interesting point to me when DD was a baby. He was doing something or another with her and I was, annoyingly no doubt, hovering over him saying 'no, you need to do this, otherwise that will happen' or whatever. Eventually, he said 'you need to allow me to make my own mistakes, and learn from them, I'm new to this too.' And he was right. Nothing bad was going to happen if he made a mistake or didn't do it my way, DD wasn't unsafe or anything. And maybe his way would actually be better than mine.

I think a lot of fathers aren't allowed to make those mistakes that mothers presumably make, and learn from, along the way. I'm getting the impression that this might be happening here.

Or maybe he just isn't a very good parent. They do exist and it isn't always the fault of their spouse.
He's not a child and twisting things so that the op is somehow responsible for both his behaviour and dealing with the fallout is really unfair.

I'm not twisting anything. I'm simply not going to take the limited info the OP has provided from her own point of view as the be all and end all.

Of course there are crap parents, of both sexes. But if the OP has posted surely she wants to get this sorted, or is she just after everyone agreeing with her that her DH is crap? That's hardly going to help, is it?

And there is a difference between occasional babying (my kids choose whatever book they want for a bedtime story - I wasn't aware other parents did a word count first). I also help my autistic son with buttons when he needs me to and he is 7. And we will play games where he is my baby.
That is very differently to persistently treating a 4 yr old as completely incapable of physical tasks. How the dh is behaving is the same as the care a friend of mine HAS to give her severely physically disabled child. It isn't right to treat a child that way with no reason. Even if they are enjoying the fact that they can make you.

If her dh is crap then other people pointing that out could be very helpful actually.
I agree we don't always get the full picture on threads like this but I don't think filling in the gaps based on your own life is necessarily helpful.

But it's not automatically unhelpful either. In fact, surely a lot of what talk forums is about is sharing your own experience to help others. You don't get to say whether my experience is or isn't unhelpful. However, you obviously think you do so I'll bow out now. Best of luck, OP.

You might strike lucky filling in gaps or you might be completely on the wrong lines. My comment was more aimed at maths posts suggesting the girls are copying their rude behaviour from the op. Pure conjecture.

They are beginning to continue the behaviour on his first day back at work with me, which is why it needs nipping in the bud. It feels unfair on them to waste a day telling them off for what he allows and it's unfair for me to always have to be the bad guy when he's here. There's no point me telling them rudeness won't get them anywhere when DH is hovering to complete whatever rude order was given.

If the OP prefers to be right than a leader in her own home then it is fine to fold her arms and feel uplifted by the verdict of AIBU.

If she wants to make a difference in the situation that has developed in her family then she needs to abandon her high horse and start making changes herself.

If it was a matter of how to arrange socks in a drawer she could afford to continue the standoff, but continuing to skirmish with her DH while the children are caught in the middle is harmful to them.

Babying is one thing (and it is not in itself a harmful thing) but continuing to expose your children to a situation where they have been saddled with so much power and control is another altogether. The OP needs to take back control for the girls' sakes.

It was not rude behaviour that the girls were copying, but absorbing the attitude. There is a big difference. I wish you would read a bit closer, Corbyns. I keep on having to correct the versions of what you say I have posted.

No, I don't want to be the leader math. I want DH and I to be an equal partnership so the responsibility for everything doesn't always fall to me.

The OP needs to take back control for the girls' sakes

BUT she can't do that unless her DH agrees to make those changes!!

So you have no desire to do things any other way than the full frontal assault.
Has it worked so far?
Who and what has suffered so far?
The answer to that one is the girls and the relationship with your DH.

You can't just wish for things to be different. Without getting out of your comfort zone and addressing the urgent and immediate problem that is affecting your girls nothing is going to change for them. The urgent and immediate problem is your refusal to address the emotional needs of everyone in your family, and your anxiety when it comes to emotional needs must be tackled.

The only result guaranteed from the full frontal "Look how much better things go when I am in charge" approach is heels dug in on the other side, just as when he does things his way and tries to convince you that you are not treating the girls right you become more and more convinced that you are in fact right. The full frontal "I am right and you are wrong and why can't you just do things my way?" ignores everyone's emotional needs.

There are less confrontational methods of achieving the change you want to see, that will result in far less damage to the people you want to set right.
Do you want to feel you are right or do you want to start the ball rolling and make change happen?
How much damage to your children are you willing to risk from having them caught between two stubborn parents who have lost sight of their ultimate need to feel secure?
Is acknowledgement that you are right really that important to you?

What is it about the babying that is touching a raw nerve of yours?

Why are you trying to protect yourself from the emotional element of relationships within your family?