to ask if I'm being cruel to my children?

[Busybecca]

We have two daughters, aged 4 and 3. DH and I have fallen out tonight after he told me he thought I was cruel to the girls. DH and I differ in that I want to encourage the girls to be independent and he likes to baby them.

He works four days per week 9-5 so he isn't trying to make up for his absence or anything, but it's becoming unbearable when the four of us are together and I think our different approaches are totally unfair on and confusing to the children.

DH will hand feed them. Lift them on and off the toilet and wipe their bums. Put their shoes and clothes on and take them off for them. Put their rubbish in the bin for them. He pretty much does what they say, when they say it or else they're crying and whinging.

DD1 today went on the trampoline at the bottom of the garden then called to be lifted down. I called "use the ladder" but DH went running down the garden to lift her down Later he was upstairs and she came inside and called up to him to come and take her shoes off for her and he did! At tea time I called up to DD2 that tea was ready and she called DH to carry her downstairs, which he did. I asked her to wash her hands and she called him to turn the tap on for her, then to get the soap out for her, then to pass her the towel.

When it's just me and the girls they are fully capable of doing all of the above for themselves and they are happy to do so. When he is here they're whiny, bossy and demanding and I don't enjoy family time at all because of that. They don't listen to DH if he asks them to do anything, they just order him around.

Tonight DD1 said she needed a tissue. She was standing outside the bathroom door, I was washing up and DH was upstairs. I replied 'there's tissue in the bathroom.' She started calling to DH to get her a tissue and Lo and behold he came running downstairs to do so. Then he went in the shower and she sneezed again and was calling at him to fetch her a tissue. I told her she was more than capable of getting it herself and that he couldn't hear her because he was in the shower. She started screaming and crying for him to do it now and after a couple of minutes he got out of the shower to see what the matter was - hence me being called cruel for not getting her a tissue.

It's getting to the stage where they're a total pain in the arse on his first day back to work and I have to 'reset' them to realise they're capable of everything above. The following day they're back to normal and much happier but still DH will go back to being at their beck and call in the evening which just leads to tantrum after tantrum.

AIBU to think we can't go on like this or am I indeed cruel?

I think the overhelping and allowing rudeness are both problems. Even if the 4 yr old asks her dad really nicely to lift her on and off the loo and pull her pants up and down he is infantilizing her to actually do it.

Agree with advice given above, let him read these comments. He is totally giving the wrong idea to your girls, and whilst he does seem to love the neediness of a small child, they are clearly past this stage. Nip this in the bud. Good luck hun x

mathanxiety I really think you are putting a huge amount of responsibility for the family dynamic on the OP. How do you know it is her attitude to their father the girls are 'picking up on', rather than his own passivity and servile behaviour? She may treat him with enormous respect in every other matter, and is simply frustrated on this score because he is inculcating bad behaviour in their daughters by pandering to their (as you say perfectly predictable) enjoyment of being babied and deferred to. Why is it her responsibility to fix this dynamic for him, rather than his to stand up for himself to two little girls? Of course she should support him, but it isn't for her to do alone - surely that would simply cement any feeling that mummy is 'the boss' and daddy can be safely ignored? Not to mention forces OP into the position of 'the bad guy', stopping the license that daddy allows?

To my mind, that their behaviour is deteriorating is nothing to do with them imbibing some sort of contempt for their father from the OP; with all young children, they are pushing the boundaries to find out just how much they can get away with - and his is giving them no boundary, so they just keep pushing and escalating. With their mother, they have obviously learned exactly how far they can push, i.e. not very - you may disagree with where she draws they line, and I'm sure between her line and her husband's there is bound to be a middle ground that can be negotiated, but I imagine the children feel a lot more secure with her because they at least know where it is and understand what is expected of them. I'm particularly sad for them that Daddy has now reached his tolerance level for their bad behaviour, far too late, and is starting to snap and blame them for poor behaviour that he himself encourages. Poor little mites must be incredibly confused.

I'm also confused by you and River Tam arbitrarily deciding what children are 'capable of' at what age and how much the OP can reasonably expect of them. Different children have different levels of ability in different areas. OP has said that when they are with her, they are perfectly capable of doing the tasks she has mentioned safely and happily, and you have no reason to disbelieve her. Maybe you helped yourchildren with these things to an older age, but the OP has found she did not need to with hers. And I think it is quite clear that it is not the fact he helps them that bothers her so much as the demanding and imperious attitude they are developing as a result of him dropping everything for them without even encouraging them to ask politely or wait patiently.

Not to mention calling her 'cruel' for not mimicking his lack of boundaries is, well, rather cruel!

YADNBU, He's being a dick.

Surely we spend time teaching our kids to do things for themselves so they can cope with being without us. They don't want to be the odd one out at school or playgroup because they can't manage basic tasks for themselves. Dad needs to set boundaries at the same level as you have or the kids could find themselves being picked on or bullied for being different. Everyone knows kids can be cruel so it's best to be sure yours can fit in at an early age and he certainly isn't helping by treating them as though they haven't achieved the level of self sufficiency you have worked so hard on.

What I mentioned wrt children's development and what they are and are not capable of at certain ages is not arbitrary. What I posted reflects familiarity with research in the field of very early childhood development. Children of 2 are not ready either in terms of physical coordination or emotionally to dress themselves. Children of 4-5 otoh are ready and can do a decent job of it with encouragement.

The OP needs to intervene when the children behave badly because that is what responsible parents do. It is also necessary because she unfortunately knows her H will snap at the girls in the end and it is best to avoid that.

The girls are indeed very confused, and the OP needs to help them get over that. Intervention to stop the screaming and tantrummiimg is needed so the girls can understand the boundaries. It is a very necessary first step.

Of course the OP could stand aside and adopt the attitude that her H caused this and he can fix it, but in the meantime the girls are not being taught the right lessons.

The girls have to be first in everyone's concerns here. There should be no high horses on the part of the OP.

(The extremely poor behaviour the OP described is characteristic of children caught in a standoff. Children who have one parent a bit softer than the other, one paying more attention to sowing what she wants to reap than the other do not normally exhibit the extreme behaviour that these girls are engaging in. They may behave slightly differently with one parent but it is not normally the night vs day scenario described by the OP. The behaviour described arises when children are angry and insecure. The anger and insecurity come from sending conflict. They are ok with babying because it meets their need to feel secure.

It takes two to create a situation like this.

I was with someone for four years who treated his children this way. There was only a year between the youngest two and he treated them like twins. When the older of the two started school he bought the younger one a shirt and tie "fake uniform" for nursery. It totally took the focus off his elder son's first day at school. I'm well rid.

mathanxiety

the girls have to be first in everyone's concerns here

And yet the one who has to change is the OP, in spite of the fact the children are happy and well behaved with her, and her husband refuses to negotiate parenting style and calls her 'cruel'. Interesting...

children of two are not ready either in terms of physical coordination or emotionally to dress themselves

And yet, the OP's children were able to do so, despite you insisting that this is impossible. From what I understand, children the world over are raised in radically different ways with different expectations of them at different ages, not to mention children raised in exactly the same way in one family who hit milestones at different points - unless your contention is that there is only one way to raise children, or that the OP is lying, then what you've written is a bit odd...

I've had a similar battle with my DH. Although it's now resolved. Our son is only 17 months old, but when I'm at home with ds he is an absolute treasure. Yet a few months ago when dh was home, our son would whine cry and demand full attention. I found myself really frustrated, and like you, Mondays became my reset day. However, at first I battled with dh, but then thought if I actually sit down in a really kind way and explain the benefit to ds to avoid him not getting stressed, by avoiding meeting ALL demands. Of course our baby is much younger, but it's just as important to reward good behaviour.
Maybe suggest you make a chart of responsibilities for your dd x 2 and after a period of time they receive a treat. You could get your husband to run through it with them as though it's his idea and you both agree to support one another. The girls will love this idea. You could phrase it to your husband that it will give each of you a great indication as to how capable your girls actually are. Everyone will benefit. Good luck xxx

YANBU

So mathanxiety are you suggesting that of the girls are standing screaming for DH to pull their knickers down and lift them onto the toilet, that I go to them and tell them off for their behaviour while he stands there looking apologetic and disapproving and all three know he'd be doing precisely as instructed if I wasn't there? I agree that's cementing him as the sap of the house that the girls do not have to listen to and negating him of any of the responsibility of parenting. I'm happy to support him in changing things, but I can't do it for him or they'll have even less respect for him than they do now - if that's even possible.

I agree with Math to some extent. If that were my house, I would tell them off for screaming and being rude to their Dad. Then leave him to sort out whether he wants to lift them onto the toilet or not. The more you stick up for dh, the more he maybe will realise that the way they treat him isn't on at all.

As I said before, I think there's a whole lot of issues mixed up here and you are trying to deal with all of them with dh. Start with the biggest battles, which is the girls respecting their Dad. And get dh on board with that one, to the extent they need to ask nicely for things or they don't get it. Second in the battle is what he actually does for them.

Math I've studied Early Years to masters level and it is not normal for an able bodied 4 year old to be unable to pull knickers up and down or get on and off the toilet with a step if necessary. The children don't need this 'help' and I'm not sure why you're insisting they do. The dad is either doing it because he can't deal with tantrums or to fulfill some kind of desire in himself that the children's can't manage anything without him. Calling the op cruel because she refuses to behave in the same ridiculous way is actually cruel of him.

My DH did exactly this when our DD and DS were little and my mum told me he was building a rod for our backs. She was so right. Now, DD is 18 and has never cooked a meal, washed a dish, ironed an item of clothing, cleaned a room, etc. She is due to leave soon and live in University residence. I worry for her as she won't make many friends if she is as messy there as she is here. DS is similar, he orders us around. Demands me to make his food, refuses to do anything I ask him (he is 14). To cut a long story short, my DH and I are both ill now and cannot do it all anymore. I am living in a mess and I am exhausted all the time, a side effect from the whole brain radiotherapy that I had 2 years ago. It's not going to get better. DH has COPD which is a degenerative lung disease, so is breathless all the time. He lives on nebulisers. My DS has anger issues and scares me sometimes. I think it is due to the PTSD both my children were diagnosed with but it is me that is the target of his anger. I hope you don't end up like us - in fact without being ill I think we would find life difficult now with these two useless teenagers. You are right to worry,

Oh God OP. Sorry you are experiencing this but you have just reassured me that I was not being unreasonable with my exDP - and his 'parenting' style - I couldn't really say much at the time as not my kids etc, but he did exactly the same, running round, carrying them, wiping their bums, even carrying a potty downstairs for his 6-year old daughter to wee in because she couldn't be bothered to go upstairs... used to drive me insane!!! And they were a bloody nightmare, always whinging and crying if they didn't get their own way. Shame as you could tell he was setting them up to be entitled little brats. Really hope you can reach an agreement on how to proceed, this is a really important issue and YANBU at all!!! Good luck.

DD says her dad, who was like this too, was overprotective but now in her 20s has finally been able to look after herself. You really need to talk to him about it

Not Cruel at all! How will they cope at school?!

Lucky children. They have learnt all those useful competences which will serve them well in life, but they also have the security of knowing they can be "babies" some of the time. Most children like to go back and forth between being all grown up and being all babyish. That's childhood, that's normal, that's lovely - and childhood will be over soon enough: you don't need to hurry them out of it. The sad thing is that you have split the two sides of this between you and are now fighting about it, which probably puts stress into the family relationship as well as setting up a situation where the children learn to play you off against each other.

Chill. Why don't you start babying them a bit in front of him? You might find that you enjoy it, despite yourself, and feel closer to your children if you aren't always hurrying them towards "putting away childish things". But on the other hand he will then see his own behaviour mirrored in yours and might start to see that some of it is pretty silly and unnecessary. So you might also very well find that suddenly he is taking on the "promote independence" role at some times, rather than the pair of you polarising into opposite camps, which isn't good for anyone in the family.

there is a difference between children who do need the help to dress and those who are independent enough to dress themselves.

...they do all these things independently and without fuss when he isn't here (and at nursery and school)

To those asking how the girls are going to manage at school - they are apparently doing fine.

Busybecca
Your question to me is very general.
If you mean should you tell the girls off for wanting their dad to assist them every step of the way to use the loo, the answer is no. There is nothing wrong about this element of what is going on. If you have anxiety about it, please dismiss it.
If you mean should you tell the girls off for rudeness, screaming, tantrumming, and demands at high decibel (for example while he is in the shower) then the answer is yes.

Your girls are fine when it comes to taking care of themselves - they are well able to perform self-care tasks when they are with you and away from home.
Relax.
As MotherHen says, none of the babying matters. Children vacillate between independence and being babies. Normal healthy parents vacillate between fostering independence and babying. It all evens out in the long run and even in the short run.

But the rudeness and the bossyness and tantrums matter and you need to stop that. It is up to your H to 'baby' the girls if he wants to after that. It will not have a bad effect on them, as you have already seen in their school performance.

As an example of focusing on the elements of their behaviour that are unacceptable - you recount an incident where DD sneezed and needed a tissue.
Instead of telling DD to get a tissue for herself since she was well able to, and saying that dad couldn't hear her because he was in the shower, you should have told her it was rude and unreasonable for her to bother her dad in the shower and that it is never ok to scream and yell at someone the way she was carrying on. You could have asked her what would happen if she behaved like that in school if you really wanted to hammer your point home. When you told her that dad couldn't hear her she may have decided extra decibels would help.

You have to stop this bad behaviour. You completely overlooked it and focused only on what DD wanted and the physical obstacles to getting it, whereas the point of your interaction with her should have been that it is not ok to bother someone while they are in the shower. This is how you teach boundaries.
'Dad can't hear you' is not the way to get her to understand that it is not ok to bother dad while he is in the shower. That only invites a higher decibel level. You have to spell it out to her that bothering someone in the shower is not acceptable and screaming when someone doesn't respond is also unacceptable.
(Channeling Supernanny here with the word 'unacceptable', sorry.)

As an example of where you need to relax, you remarked that you have told DD that if she can't get onto the trampoline by herself then she can't use it.
I'm left to deal with the tears if she does it when he's not here and I tell her she can't use the trampoline if she claims to be unable to get up and down by herself.
You should take MotherHen's advice and do some babying.
All the effort that you have put into teaching your girls self-care will go to waste if you continue to imply to your girls in incidents like that that once they can do a thing there is no valid reason to expect help with it from you. This behaviour on your part will kill any joy they may feel about their abilities. You must always seek to preserve the relationship when you foster independence, and with children of 3 and 4 that involves assuring them that you are still mummy as they have known you for the course of their short lives.
You should focus on maintaining their joy in accomplishing tasks by themselves, which will help them to try to be more responsible. They need to feel at the same time that you are a soft place where they can land - to penalise a 4 yo for wanting some babying (help onto or off the trampoline) is to ignore completely her emotional needs. Worse, you make her feel bad for having that emotional need.
Again, do not get bogged down in the details - the fact that she is physically able to get onto and off the trampoline is immaterial here.

What is important in all of this is what the girls are saying about their emotional needs. You are failing to recognise this.

Somehow or other, you and DH are so separate in their eyes that what you have taught them about how to treat you is not recognised by them as a general principle to be applied to everyone. When it comes to behaviour towards your husband at home, they are clearly in need of some solid leadership. They behave for you because you have succeeded in setting good boundaries around yourself. It is time for you to step up and demonstrate to them that you and DH are two halves of the same coin and what hurts one hurts the other. This needs to be made very clear and you should not let any opportunity slip past to comment on bad behaviour towards your husband. It doesn't matter what they want or whether they are or are not capable of doing a task for themselves. That issue is beside the point and not important in the long run. Do not get bogged down in the details here. The big picture is bad verbal behaviour towards dad.

Your posts are filled with exasperation and frustration with this man. I cannot believe some of your attitude towards him is not reflected at all in your home.

You and DH need to do couple things together, if you don't already, that show that you are a loving couple. Do you go out on the odd date together? Do you do small things together at home to demonstrate that you love each other? Say 'thank you' to each other with a smile? Make tea or coffee for each other? Pour a drink? Make it clear to the girls across the board in all interactions possible that your husband is important to you. What special thing did you and the girls do for him on Father's Day?

Your girls need - first, last and always - reassurance that you and their dad are happy together and focused on each other.

In fighting over how DH treats the girls/how you treat the girls you have given them a role that is terrifying them - it is the role of 'people who can get between mummy and daddy and cause them to fall out'.

You need to remove that burden from their shoulders.

You need to restore their sense of security.

You have to show leadership here. You have to compromise and do some babying. You have to do your utmost to stop the unacceptable behaviour, the demanding, shouting whinging, and tantrums. Do not sweat the detail of whether they can do X,Y or Z for themselves. The specific thing that they want does not matter. What matters is how they conduct themselves.

Their future lives do not hang on dad doing things for them that they can do for themselves or you refusing to do things for them that they can do for themselves. Their misery as they play the role of people who can treat an adult whom they love (and they do love their dad) like shit while the other adult whom they also love lets them get away with it will harm them greatly.

...it is not normal for an able bodied 4 year old to be unable to pull knickers up and down or get on and off the toilet with a step if necessary. The children don't need this 'help' and I'm not sure why you're insisting they do.

Corbyns
I am not insisting they need the physical help.

I am suggesting they have an emotional need that needs to be filled, and that it is not going to result in calamity if the OP compromises and starts looking at emotional needs instead of standing on principle.

It is completely normal for an able bodied 4 year old to want to be babied sometimes. There is a valid emotional need behind that. It is a big mistake to focus only on the physical ability or the physical need.

Agree with everything there-Math. V wise