to ask if I'm being cruel to my children?

[Busybecca]

We have two daughters, aged 4 and 3. DH and I have fallen out tonight after he told me he thought I was cruel to the girls. DH and I differ in that I want to encourage the girls to be independent and he likes to baby them.

He works four days per week 9-5 so he isn't trying to make up for his absence or anything, but it's becoming unbearable when the four of us are together and I think our different approaches are totally unfair on and confusing to the children.

DH will hand feed them. Lift them on and off the toilet and wipe their bums. Put their shoes and clothes on and take them off for them. Put their rubbish in the bin for them. He pretty much does what they say, when they say it or else they're crying and whinging.

DD1 today went on the trampoline at the bottom of the garden then called to be lifted down. I called "use the ladder" but DH went running down the garden to lift her down Later he was upstairs and she came inside and called up to him to come and take her shoes off for her and he did! At tea time I called up to DD2 that tea was ready and she called DH to carry her downstairs, which he did. I asked her to wash her hands and she called him to turn the tap on for her, then to get the soap out for her, then to pass her the towel.

When it's just me and the girls they are fully capable of doing all of the above for themselves and they are happy to do so. When he is here they're whiny, bossy and demanding and I don't enjoy family time at all because of that. They don't listen to DH if he asks them to do anything, they just order him around.

Tonight DD1 said she needed a tissue. She was standing outside the bathroom door, I was washing up and DH was upstairs. I replied 'there's tissue in the bathroom.' She started calling to DH to get her a tissue and Lo and behold he came running downstairs to do so. Then he went in the shower and she sneezed again and was calling at him to fetch her a tissue. I told her she was more than capable of getting it herself and that he couldn't hear her because he was in the shower. She started screaming and crying for him to do it now and after a couple of minutes he got out of the shower to see what the matter was - hence me being called cruel for not getting her a tissue.

It's getting to the stage where they're a total pain in the arse on his first day back to work and I have to 'reset' them to realise they're capable of everything above. The following day they're back to normal and much happier but still DH will go back to being at their beck and call in the evening which just leads to tantrum after tantrum.

AIBU to think we can't go on like this or am I indeed cruel?

[CorbynsBumFlannel]

I wouldn't say a safeguarding concern but pulling down a child's knickers lifting them on and off the loo and wiping them when they can do it themselves is bloody weird. Carrying them to the loo and lifting them on is beyond babying. He is treating them like they aren't able bodied.

[WhatWouldGenghisDo]

The problem is that if he does try to parent more like you, the immediate consequence will be the screaming and demanding going up a notch (or 10) as they initially try to get things back to 'normal'. He's going to need to commit to changing how he responds and then withstand the likely short-term consequences of truly hideous tantrums until they learn that escalating them doesn't work on him any more. I think a parenting course is definitely the way forward.

[mathanxiety]

That screaming at him is really not normal even if a parent babies children.

The extreme behaviour you are describing in your girls is very strange. Some of it (bossiness, offhandedness, misbehaviour at home when behaviour at nursery and school is good) is normal, but you are describing an extreme of neediness and anger in your girls.

Have they picked up some attitude towards him that you have modeled for them? They have no confidence in him for some reason, and it may be that you are somehow placing him in a hierarchy with you on top and him beneath you. You are probably not aware of this at all. They are certainly picking up some conflict between the two of you. You are describing the behaviour of children caught in the middle of a power struggle.

Are you and DH what you might call good cop/bad cop?

I think as part of a solution to this, you are going to have to intervene and tell your girls to behave themselves when they are with daddy. You are going to have to tell them off when you see them treating him badly. You are going to have to use the word 'respect' and you are going to have to show what you mean by that.

[CorbynsBumFlannel]

I wouldn't put this on the op. How is the dad going to get respect when a 3 year old says 'carry me down the stairs now!' and he not only does it but accuses the op if being mean for refusing! I think the girls behaviour is perfectly understandable. They have learned they can scream and daddy will do literally anything. Others won't so they don't bother. They are behaving in a way that they have been taught works for them. Only the dad can change this. He needs to start setting limits on what he will do and how he will accept being spoken to. There likely will be worse tantrums at first as the girls will be confused by the change.

[mathanxiety]

The desire to be babied is not abnormal. The babying itself will not cause harm.
The screaming is a problem and getting away with it will cause harm.

So the OP needs to tell the girls off for that. The OP and her DH need to present a united front when it comes to screaming and tantrums.

I strongly suspect that the girls have picked up some sort of negative feeling towards the DH in this family, and they are behaving badly towards him for the benefit of the OP. They are demonstrating their allegiance to the OP by treating the DH the way they do.

[CorbynsBumFlannel]

I think it's far more likely that they are screaming because daddy responds to screaming and being spoken to like crap. The op is the only parent who doesn't think the rudeness is ok so I'm not sure why you're making the leap that the children are copying her?
And why do you think the op should be doing the telling off rather than the dh when it is him they are bossing around? No point the op telling them off and the dad still pandering to their every whim and accusing the op of being mean.

[bedouincheek]

Me and DH just did a Both feeling for you OP.
Just wonder what your DH would do if you screamed for him to wipe your bum, take off your shoes and pass you tissues (always when he is on the other floor of the house).
If he thinks that is unreasonable, then he might realise that he is training his daughters to be unreasonably needy and / or demanding adults. What sort of future relationships will they have? At best they are bossy/ controlling, at worst they are unable to function without feeling a partner is providing for them (potential abusive relationship)?
Maybe a little OTT, but certainly worth a thought.

[mathanxiety]

The OP needs to tell them off because it is likely that they have picked up some element of her attitude towards the DH. (This is not 'copying' of any overt behaviour, just being sensitive to undercurrents). She also needs to model respect and affection for her DH.

The parents here are very far apart, with the OP coming across as very no nonsense and the DH absolutely the opposite, but with the OP also implying that her way must be superior.

There is a measure of anxiety imo behind the insistence on independence on the part of the OP. There is also a measure of pride that the girls could dress themselves by age 2.5, as if that reflected well on her. There has been talk of the DH indulging in his own needs when it comes to his treatment of the children, but I wonder if the OP needs her anxiety over the future outcome for the girls pandered to also and if this is why she expects feats of independence from them such as bottom wiping by a 3 year old or dressing themselves from age 2.5.

There are two very different approaches to parenting and I suspect neither parent is willing to give an inch here. The OP has already told how she had the DH observe how much better things went when she was in charge. Two stubborn people battling until the other gives up, with small children caught in the crossfire, is the essence of this situation. Nobody can win here. The biggest losers will be the relationship and the children. The adults will be unhappy but being adults they can always pick up and move on with separate lives.

You don't rub your spouse's nose in how wrong he is and hope to emerge with a good, solid, mutually respectful relationship afterwards. You won't get away with it with two small children soaking it all up like sponges either, and a sentient human being on the receiving end of that treatment. The children will suffer and the marital relationship will suffer.

I hope the OP will examine her own fears and anxiety.

[TheStoic]

I strongly suspect that the girls have picked up some sort of negative feeling towards the DH in this family, and they are behaving badly towards him for the benefit of the OP

Very, very unlikely.

[Nelly5678]

No yanbu. Film them being "normal" and show him that they're fine and that he needs to back off as they're walking all over him and he will have no respect from them in the future. And taking off your own shoes never hurt anyone

[CorbynsBumFlannel]

There's absolutely no indication of any undercurrent from the op imo. When one parent is carrying able bodied children around the house as if they have no use of their legs then it should be pretty obvious that they are the one who needs to make changes.
And if you look at developmental milestones it is perfectly average for nt children to be dressing themselves at 2 (aside from difficult fastenings) and using the toilet by themselves at 3. Or do imagine preschool teachers are lifting 30 able bodied kids on and off toilets all day?

[WeasleyWoman]

I Will admit to giving up on page 2 so sorry if this is a cross post.
Of course yanbu. He is but it does all come from a place of love. Could you get the girls to try and address this? Make a video with them 'showing daddy how independent' they can be? Get him on board by giving them lot of praise and cuddles for being independent. You are right and whilst mumsnet will back you, the moral high ground can be lonely. You don't want to be the bad guy here for doing the best by your girls. Talk to them all.
Good luck

[Sparklyglitter]

Sorry that is really weird and detrimental behaviour to your girls!

[Sugarpiehoneyeye]

I think you're doing a great job OP, now you just need to educate your third baby ... he needs to learn to encourage their independence.

[Craigie]

You're not cruel, your husband is.

[clarkl2]

Manipulative kids and a sap of a husband!

[crazycatz]

Maybe have a chat with him about development and how he's undermining them. Maybe show him more healthy ways to interact like praising g them for their independence and find stuff he can actively do with them like cooking or taking them out for bike rides. He obviously cares massively about them but maybe he is just naive and doesn't know how to interact with them or how to a positive role model. He's setting them up to be quite spoilt and narcissistic which could mean they really struggle having respectful relationships in future. I'm sure he means well tho and if he can take on board some changes he'll be a fabulous daddy. He might lots of support and gentle encouragement to get there tho. 😀

[MerryMarigold]

I think you're tacking too many things with him OP. I would sit down and thank him for wanting to do things for his kids, and then come up with things they still need help with, eg. reading a story, having a bath/ hairwash etc. Tell him you are trying to make them independent and confident and that's a good thing.

If you go in with the negative, that they have no respect for him, are bossing him around, you have to deal with the fallout etc. he's likely to just get defensive (I would! Not just a male thing!).

Try and turn it around to be positive. Maybe he was a bit neglected as a child and really wants to baby his kids because he was left to get on with things when he was too young.

[Loreleigh]

I don't think cruelty is the issue here at all. Your daughters are obviously clever girls that have learned how easily they can manipulate their father. I think you need to put them to bed one night and you and your husband have a serious discussion so that you present a more united front to your daughters. By enabling and encouraging babyish behaviours he is not doing them, or you, any favours. The examples you have given, like bum wiping, will leave the girls open to ridicule from their peers at school. You are teaching your girls essential skills and he is undoing this growth by encouraging 'spoilt brat' type behaviours and giving in to the emotional blackmail of whinging and crying. If he refuses to take a more adult approach maybe look at treating him like a third child - praise and training in life skills for him and the girls, lol. Tell him how wonderful it will feel when he gets to see his girls learning new things, accomplishing their goals, doing things more independently, and growing into lovely young women equipped to tackle whatever life throws at them. At least dad is interested and involved so that's a good starting point. Good luck - it sounds like you are up against it a bit.

[SukiTheDog]

I'm with you OP. Dad needs to get with the Independence programme and give lots of cuddles, praise and encouragement imo.

[Katherine2626]

Some parents do everything for the children because it seems to be quicker than letting them try for themselves; a friend spoon fed hers until they were practically at school because t was 'quicker and a lot less messy.' How are these children ever to do anything for themselves? Their teachers will be really delighted if they are calling out out to be dressed and undressed for P.E! This Dad is being unkind and a bit foolish.

[buttercup54321]

He is being unreasonable and ridiculous. He obviously cant accept that the baby stage is over. This needs to stop.

[Mummmy2017]

I think you should start doing it to him as well, demand he puts your shoes and and gets you tisssue, total relaps into a 3 year old one weekend, and see what he says.

[ocelot41]

Depends on your DC. My DS still struggled to wipe his bottom at 3 (and 4 actually) resulting in filthy great skiddies all the time. So some supervision needed (ie making sure they wiped until the paper was clean). Hands didn't get washed properly unless I supervised, resulting in threadworms, sickness etc. And I think that 3 and 4 year olds often need help getting dressed and undressed, even if its just 'One sock'... And 5 mins later when they have drifted off 'And the OTHER sock' etc... On balance, I think its about supervision and guidance.