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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Aibu to be so angry with the tory government regarding grenfell

574 replies

GreenTreesWithLeaves · 16/06/2017 20:47

Grenfell should not have happened. Austerity, cost cutting, ignoring the poor, helping the rich get richer, all this led to the horrific circumstances.

Tory response? Theresa May didnt even speak to the survivor residents. A tory minister cited security reasons, yet the Queen managed to come out and talk to the residents without issue.

Tories have form for voting against safety issues in housing. All to benefit the wealthy. It is utterly shameful that these are the people that run our country, who care only for the rich.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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user1497800655 · 18/06/2017 20:40

A loan would be silly.

The sums involved are small enough to sidestep KYC requirements in a crisis, I suppose. They'll be time enough to verify the account later

Yess I suppose a loan would be silly.

Don't know If I am comfortable with ID checks being waived, the rules are there for everyone where security is concerned so it would be not good to sidestep procedures as that is when something else slips through the net and comes back to bite you later.

suffolknclose · 18/06/2017 20:45

I agree with the point re ID checks, sadly in disasters like this and 9/11 where victims become unidentifiable there is always the danger that people use it as an opportunity to either disappear or defraud in some way. It's sad that's the case but true.

Hopefully there is some way that through rent being paid from specific bank accounts, the money can be provided to them and then people can access their accounts using security/personal information in branch.

GloriaGilbert · 18/06/2017 20:52

Of course, and it's not even remotely cynical to assume that someone is going to attempt to impersonate one of the residents - but I'd just ask them to bring one friend to vouch for them and one source of online photos e.g. Facebook Icloud or whatever. Deal with people who can't produce this as they come.

Mind you, this is what the UK government does when people are robbed abroad and left with no identity and no passport. They're supposed to be able to cope with just this scenario.

GreenTreesWithLeaves · 18/06/2017 21:41

Sorry for not providing the Hammond link and thank you to the poster for linking. Those pictures with exposed pipes all over are not what you call renovation. This renovation was purely for the exterior to look aesthetically pleasing, whereas on the inside it was anything but. I was feeling relieved for a moment that the victims will have some money by tomorrow, until I read the post about this being standard payment for a demolition anyway.

Just seen some harrowing pictures of the aftermath of the tower inside. How did they even find bodies in those ashes Sad

Feeling such anger and sadness.

OP posts:
PencilsInSpace · 18/06/2017 21:54

I'd imagine they're issuing simple payment cards for emergency funds where people have lost their ID. Who knows though, the response has been so bad so far I have no trouble believing there are lots of people who have no access to cash.

Wherexx those images are shocking! Angry

chilipepper20 · 18/06/2017 22:27

My understanding here is that the issue isn't about owning more than one property, it's about owning property for land banking, it being left empty and the limitations this can sometimes place when it comes to social housing.

the problem isn't that the rich are landbanking and using property as stores of value. The problem is that the rich are right - buying up London property was (and may still be) a good investment.

the problem is that our government has created a screwed up economy with low interest rates and nothing better for the rich to do with their money than buy up houses. Think of how unproductive that is. that money could be invested in business, but it is not.

all this is definitely about housing. if this happened in a cheap part of the country it would be significantly easier to rehouse people locally.

Atenco · 18/06/2017 22:29

Creampastry

You are not the only person who can copy and paste
Here are the answers to your points.The widely accepted narrative from the 2017 General Election is that the Tories didn't romp to victory as they expected to because they were completely routed on the social media battleground.

The response of Tories to this absolute drubbing isn't to reflect on what they were doing wrong, but to double-down on it, hence the absolute bombardment of copy n' paste pro-Tory lies that has been inspired by the likes of Raheem Kassam of Breitbart London.

I've already written a post exposing the outright lies about the Grenfell tower fire that Raheem Kassam blared onto Twitter, and in this post I'm going to break down a a copy n' paste Tory propaganda post that has been smeared onto my page several times by several different right-wing activists over the last couple of days which claims to be "the facts".

I'll go through it point by point to show what a despicable and devious pack of lies and misrepresentations it actually is:

1 - the block of flats was run not by any council but by KCTMO. This body is made up of 8 TENANTS, 4 councilors and 3 independent members.

The block is run by KCTMO but the management committee includes 8 residents, which includes both tenants and leaseholders. The local council still retains control over the budget of the organisation.

2 - Labour hold the seat that the block is situated in.

Labour does indeed hold the local council seat in which Grenfell tower is situated, but that's just one of seven Labour seats on the council (40 Tory, 7 Labour, 3 Lib-Dem). Noting that the tower block is in one of the very few non-Tory wards in Kensington and Chelsea is an obvious distraction tactic.

3 - Labour run the London Council who manage the under funded London Fire Service

As noted above Kensington and Chelsea council is a Tory controlled council, and has been a Tory controlled council since its inception in 1964. 

The idea that Kensington and Chelsea council manage the fire services of the entire city of London is transparent nonsense. Why would anyone bother to invent such a ludicrous lie? How could anyone expect others to be thick enough to believe such a ludicrous lie?

The reason London's fire service is underfunded is not because the (Tory controlled) Kensington and Chelsea council cut it (!!!) but because the Tory Mayor of London Boris Johnson imposed savage austerity cuts, including the closure of 10 London fire stations in one fell swoop. 

4 - incidentally Emma Coad the sitting Labour MP for that ward also sat on the KCTMO.

Emma Coad was only elected as the Labour MP on June 8th 2017, just days before the fire. 

Before that the Tory MP for Kensington was Victoria Borwick (who lobbied Theresa May to drop David Cameron's ban on the ivory trade from the 2017 Tory manifesto instead of lobbying her to follow the expert advice and ban flammable cladding on high rise buildings).

Coad was on the board of KCTMO until 2012 when she resigned. She left long before any refurbishments to Grenfell tower were made. Coad's time on the board was before the residents fire safety concerns were repeatedly raised and ignored by the organisation. 

5 - the advice to stay put which Sadiq Khan has been so vocal about was given by the London Fire Service.

It is true that fire service advice to high rise tenants is often to remain within their properties, but had the fire authorities known that the private contractors had cut corners by cladding the entire building in flammable plastic, I'm pretty sure they would have issued very different advice.

6 - the decision to change contractors during the refurb was made by KCTMO.

The decision to outsource so much refurbishment work to unaccountable subcontractors and sub-subcontractors was a total mess. At the top of the pyramid of responsibility was still the Tory controlled local council which had to sign off on the bills.

7 - the decision not to spend a paltry £138k on fitting sprinklers again KCTMO.

Who knows where this £138,000 spend on sprinklers comes from? The building wasn't fitted with sprinklers (despite a succession of Tory housing ministers spending four years sitting on a report calling for sprinklers in tower blocks to avoid a repeat of the Lakanal fire in 2009).

8 - the decision to create ALMO organisation such as the KCTMO was made under the Right To Manage legislation passed in 2002 as part of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act.

This is an outright lie. KCTMO was founded on April 1st 1996 by the Conservative council at the tail end of John Major's Conservative government.

9 - this was put in place to give leasehold tenants a greater say and the ability to self manage, which has clearly proven to be a disaster.

Is this really a right-winger implying that renationalisation of all the council housing that has been carved up and given away to private management companies would be a good idea? If it is, it would be a total reversal of the last four decades of hard-right neoliberal housing policy.

10 - and which Govt was in a charge when this law was passed? Yup you guessed it Labour.

Another outright lie. As mentioned above KCTMO was founded in 1996 by a Tory council, under a Tory government.

11 - Sadiq Khan as mayor of London Produced a report to say that the fire service did not need further funding.

A spectacular misrepresentation: Sadiq Khan produced a report as housing minister on funding in 2008; 9 years ago! He became Mayor in 2016. In November 2008 on public record Khan said: "We are committed to sustainable funding for all fire and rescue authorities"  before pointing out that Labour made significant investments in the fire service: "I have the figures for the past 10 years, and interestingly the smallest increase was 1.9 per cent. in 1998-99, when we were tied to Conservative spending limits. From then on, there have been increases of 3.9 per cent., 5.4 per cent., 6.2 per cent., 7.3 per cent., 6 per cent. and 4.9 per cent". So funding went up under Labour. 

Since becoming mayor in 2016 Khan has said "no more cuts to London Fire Brigade" and supported Jeremy Corbyn's manifesto which included a funding increase for the UK fire services and the hiring of 3,000 extra fire fighters.

12 -Emma Coad elected Labour MP was on the board of the Tenant Management group who are being accused of not listening to tenants.

This is a lazy repetition of the misrepresentation from point 4, she was on the board but resigned in 2012. 

It's also worth noting that points 4 & 12 are essentially the same thing, and that points 8, 9 and 10 are three strands of the same lie. It doesn't reflect well on whoever made this list that they padded it out so pathetically. 

It reflects even more poorly on the pro-Tory copy n' paste disinformation merchants that they read this pack of lies and misrepresentations and failed to even notice that several of the points were lazy repetitions.
LostSight · 18/06/2017 22:34

Philip Hammond stated on The Andrew Marr show that "My understanding is the cladding in question, this flammable cladding which is banned in Europe and the US, is also banned here."

This statement is in complete conflict with everything that has been said in the past few days. Many papers have repeated it as if it is a definitive statement.

I have been trying to discover the truth, but it is difficult.

Found this comment below an article in the Express:

"I know the building regs quite well thanks. In 2013/2014 the regulations were changed for new builds only. This kind of cladding cannot be used on a new build but it can on an old building undergoing a refurbishment. Government was lobbied to include this change retrospectively but it was ruled out as unnecessary cost."

Then a further comment, lower down:

Hammond has to be very, very careful with what he says because you are correct, this product is not banned here. It was banned on new builds only. He is being very clever with his words. It could of been banned completely but because of Conservative and Lib Dem dithering about retrospective replacement it was dropped from the bill.

Does anyone here have knowledge of these regulations. If Philip Hammond is lying (or as good as) I would like to know.

Natsku · 19/06/2017 07:17

So banned on new builds but not for refurbishing old builds? That's fucked up.

Thank you for refuting that post Atenco really informative

makeourfuture · 19/06/2017 07:22

the problem is that our government has created a screwed up economy with low interest rates and nothing better for the rich to do with their money than buy up houses. Think of how unproductive that is. that money could be invested in business, but it is not.

Truth spoken!

7461Mary18 · 19/06/2017 07:26

Atenco, thanks for that. I am afraid it does show me though that this is not really a political issue. Both parties were involved and we are all horrified about what has happened and hope lessons have been learnt. Labour and the Tories and indeed the tenants were all involved in some way.

The ID issue is very difficult for survivors. I do not agree above that taking a friend along to claim money and using your facebook account (there are millions of fake ones out there) as evidence worksbut clearly we have to give emergency help to victims. I assumed that the £5k going out today would go by bank transfer to the same bank people pay their rent from (where they are social tenants rather than paying rent to a private long leaseholder) but I suppose that still leaves the problem of how you convince your bank you are John Smith who lived in the block. Not easy.

FinallyThroughTheRoof · 19/06/2017 07:28

Yes atencos post clearly shows both parties were equally involved..

If you have issues with understanding. Or are being wilfully obtuse and provocative.

GloriaV · 19/06/2017 07:28

the problem is that our government has created a screwed up economy with low interest rates and nothing better for the rich to do with their money than buy up houses. Think of how unproductive that is. that money could be invested in business, but it is not

Good point - but I would like to correct government to governments - buying up houses in London has gone on for more than the 7 years of Tory gov.

FinallyThroughTheRoof · 19/06/2017 07:29

And blaming tenants because they are not engineering experts is harsh

LostSight · 19/06/2017 07:54

So banned on new builds but not for refurbishing old builds? That's fucked up.

It is fucked up, but that wasn't my main point.

This is the second most powerful person in the government under Theresa May.

In the middle of a disaster, where fingers are being pointed at the government because they failed to put in place the appropriate legislation that would have prevented these appalling events, this man goes on national television and lies about the legislation.

Does nobody else find that appalling?

He is saying the government is not to blame and putting the responsibility on the person or persons who 'failed to follow the legislation'.

If what I posted above is correct, it is a clear attempt to shift the blame.

kittybiscuits · 19/06/2017 08:01

Thanks Atenco for taking the time to pick throughthat list of lies and misrepresentations. Obviously even as you present people with the truth, there are some pathetic sheep who will read it and see what they want to see. That is the biggest challenge to me here. The stupidity of people who are incapable of reaching any objective view of a situation.

PencilsInSpace · 19/06/2017 08:30

7461Mary18 in what way is this the tenants' fault? Hmm

The sensible and humane thing to do for survivors to get payments would be to issue simple payment cards with a letter from the council they can use as ID. If fraudulent claims are made, the money can be clawed back later as overpayments and the fraudsters prosecuted, as is normal practice.

GloriaV · 19/06/2017 09:24

It's surely also our faults.
Labour left the coffers empty, Tories come into power and bring in austerity, things that should be done aren't. If Tories demand more money by cutting state pension or taxing more, to allow austerity to be reduced, they will be voted out.
That is why Corbyn did well, he promised more spending, keeping the triple lock on pension, giving back university fees. And lots of people voted for him and want that to happen.
He was going to tax those earning over 80,000 - I doubt there is a chance that will cover all he promises and those who voted for him won't pay more.
So it is our faults - we want everything but we don't want to pay for it.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 19/06/2017 10:18

Atenco

You might want to check your c&p too.

I have looked a 2 claims only on that list.

1 Coad was on the board of KCTMO until 2012 when she resigned. She left long before any refurbishments to Grenfell tower were made. Coad's time on the board was before the residents fire safety concerns were repeatedly raised and ignored by the organisation.
She is actually down as having 5 current board memberships inc planning services as here www.rbkc.gov.uk/committees/members/tabid/62/ctl/viewcmis_person/mid/384/id/297/default.aspx

2 Sadiq Khan as mayor of London Produced a report to say that the fire service did not need further funding. A spectacular misrepresentation: Sadiq Khan produced a report as housing minister on funding in 2008; 9 years ago!
Khan did indeed commission a mayoral report in 2016 that showed the fire service had performed well despite cuts. Khan certainly took the advice that no further cuts were to be made in addition to the scheduled £23.5 million cut over the next 3 years. He did not contest the cuts as here
www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/overall-the-service-has-coped-well-with-cuts

They are the only 2 things I have looked at from that list. It took seconds to find out that they were incorrect. What else is wrong? The sheer lies and disinformation from both sides are absolutely disgraceful.

Atenco · 19/06/2017 11:12

kittybiscuits thank you but I just copied and pasted too. I haven't got those sorts of facts at my fingertips.

And seahorses, I'm sorry. I would never deliberately post misinformation.

kittybiscuits · 19/06/2017 11:56

GloriaV - there was a global financial crisis. The Tories gave away more money than Labour and increased the national debt. They just didn't spend it on public services. But you will just keep on peddling your stupid fictional narrative, regardless.

GloriaV · 19/06/2017 12:50

Labour was in power when the worst of the financial crisis happened (til 2010) so hard to blame Tory profligance - but keep peddling your stupid fictional narrative!
But labours policy to only tax those earning over 80k is correct - so most voting labour can rant happily as they wont be contributing to any of the spending they are demanding.

katronfon · 19/06/2017 12:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

kittybiscuits · 19/06/2017 13:01

You seem to have had a difficulty understanding what I typed Gloria.

HandbagKrabby · 19/06/2017 13:15

You can be a high earner and be happy to pay more for better public services, not everyone with money and assets wants to horde them like a gollum whilst basic public safety is disregarded to save money.