Aibu to be so angry with the tory government regarding grenfell

[GreenTreesWithLeaves]

Grenfell should not have happened. Austerity, cost cutting, ignoring the poor, helping the rich get richer, all this led to the horrific circumstances.

Tory response? Theresa May didnt even speak to the survivor residents. A tory minister cited security reasons, yet the Queen managed to come out and talk to the residents without issue.

Tories have form for voting against safety issues in housing. All to benefit the wealthy. It is utterly shameful that these are the people that run our country, who care only for the rich.

Ermm compulsory purchase orders are our laws

and from what I have just looked at the only time human rights have been brought into it is when it's about a private company profiting from it.

I feel this has been yet another derail.

But I will put my 2p worth in...

It sits uneasy with me revoking rights to own more then one property.

But I don't think that is Likely to happen and is not what has been suggested.

Compulsory purchase orders are used all the time. Unfortunately most are whole communities forced out. (You know people who actual live in their houses and have family and friends there too)

Where is your concern for their human rights?

Property rights do not trump human rights.

Certainly not, but I can't imagine a scenario in which they can't peacefully co-exist.

Human rights, by definition, cannot cost money. They might cost money to enforce, but they are essentially free - the right to life, freedom, speech, privacy and the like.

My understanding here is that the issue isn't about owning more than one property, it's about owning property for land banking, it being left empty and the limitations this can sometimes place when it comes to social housing.

I heard from people who were there that it took two hours for the fire brigade to come.

My post was showing the many measures the Coalition and Tories have taken - siome just in force sicne April 2017 which are having a huge effec ton property in London. The market has stalled. Prices are falling. Developments are having to offer massive price cuts.

However it has another effect. If you pay an annual tax ATED on £500k+ properties and very high 12 - 1% stamp duties on very expensive properties then investors move instead to buying lower value properties eg some Chinese now buy in Manchester £200k properties as the state has aid there will bhe massive property taxes on basically London properties so not surprisingly investors move elsewhere.

We could ban foreign ownership of British property.
We could ban the ownership of any residential property within a trust or company.
We could ban second home owners entirely although I am niot sure tenants would be too happy with that.

I don't agree owning property is an absolute right - even freehold is just held from the Queen in England and compulsory purchase for rail building and the like exists.

In a capitalist state ownership of property is very important. If people think they homes or indeed savings (as in Cyprus) can just be confiscated at will they will stop bothering to save or buy a home.

My point is we have had massive only quite recent change (all Tory led of course , never Labour) to try to deal with some aspects of the property market. It needs to bed down and is working to some extent.
Private rents in Grenfell Tower were £1500 a month. I wonder what the social housing rents were?

Name changer I saw that yesterday and wasnt to sure what to make of it.

You are correct Gloria and I'm perhaps being obtuse in my use of the term human rights. It just makes me so unbelievably angry when we are talking about scores of people being left homeless, bereft and traumatised and the talk turns to protecting the rights of the wealthy. Everybody has rights but sometimes the needs of people are the immediate priority.

Yes but its not from a friend of a friend of a friend its from actual people who were there.

You are correct Gloria and I'm perhaps being obtuse in my use of the term human rights. It just makes me so unbelievably angry when we are talking about scores of people being left homeless, bereft and traumatised and the talk turns to protecting the rights of the wealthy. Everybody has rights but sometimes the needs of people are the immediate priority.

You're not being obtuse. I share your rage at the substandard cladding, but it's not going to help anyone by delivering justice outside the confines of the law. We can do the right thing by them and stay above board.

Property right is not about a right to buy. It is a human right to not have what is legally and rightfully owned by you to be taken away through coercion, deception or by force. It's not a matter of buying a house or having a house to live. It is not just about bricks and mortar. But if you undermine it in one area, the consequences can be disastrous.

It is a bastion of our society.

Anyone well versed in human rights v compulsory purchase orders, could you put your knowledge to good use and help the 4000 home owners due to lose their properties due to the Heathrow expansion.

your.heathrow.com/takingbritainfurther/local-community/property-compensation/

Where is your concern for their human rights?

I actually think there is an argument to be made that property rights fall under human rights, inasmuch as taking someone else's property is an impingement upon their freedom.

Of course, we accept all kinds of impingements upon our basic human rights as a matter of practicality but there are well-intentioned civil libertarians who devote their lives to protecting these basic rights to head off government tyranny.

It's wrong to assume that people who champion property rights are merely mouthpieces of the wealthy.

I'm sure Jeremy Corbyn will readily agree that violating property rights would fundamentally weaken society. Thus is why seizing legally acquired property from others would be disastrous.

Some have equated property rights to some right to buy property and have second homes.

No one should be able to take away from you what you have legally acquired, whether through purchase or through the product of your intellectual efforts. It could be as small as a bead that you own to a grand mansion.

It's wrong to assume that people who champion property rights are merely mouthpieces of the wealthy

No, Its more about saying some people only champion the human rights when it suits them, and happily turn a blind eye when it doesn't.

Another, what exactly is your agenda beyond repeating the same thing multiple times?

The greatest property right is the right to not have your life or your labour taken by force.

Property rights is an absolutely fundamental pillar of society. What is consider a human right can change as societal norms change but property right is a simple, uncomplicated constant.

Anotheroneofthese

I take it you will be offering your help to the people around Heathrow then? And to all the other many effected by compulsory purchase orders up and down the country?

What is your agenda Lotus?

dinocandle I love locally and have spoken to many people who witnessed the whole thing. The fire engines arrived in 6 minutes but sadly their brave efforts were not successful in saving all.

I have heard some stupid conspiracy theories in the last few days but that is one of the silliest.

Witch, explain to me how what Jeremy Corbyn proposed falls in the Spirit of a CPO? He wants to immediately seize these people's properties on a political issue/ideology that the Grenfell disaster is about the divide between rich and poor and that immediately seizing these properties will solve the problem of the Grenfell disaster.

Do you understand what CPOs are and why ans when they are used? How exactly does it apply to this tragedy?

Presumably no investigation is needed to answer numerous questions that need answering. No, seize property under CPOs, and that's the answer.

My agenda? Nice deflection. Don't worry, nobody is going to let the nasty man Robin Hood you out of all of your worldly posessions. Your position of privilige will not be toppled by all of those homeless peasants and your ivory tower will remain untouched.

I live locally too, just by Trellik and this is what I have been told. The truth will come out I suppose.
I'm also shocked theta the fire brigade had only jut gone round there Saturday to warn them what to do if a fire breaks out and of course that was stay inside. So that's why so many people are dead (don't believe that missing shit) because fresh in their minds they were told to stay inside.
Also if the fire brigade were doing checks why is it only now being reported that the fire alarms were not working? What the fuck were they checking?

Or as Jeremy Corbyn would have it, just seize them immediately without due process.