To be very worried about this behaviour?

[poopsqueak]

I am worried about my daughters behavioural changes over the past month.

She is 5 and bright and loud to begin with. We have a very stable family life although we have seen some 'big' events over the past month (bridesmaid duty, family holiday, very ill Grandma)

Over the past month we have seen an alarming switch to 'manic and aggressive' with intrusive thoughts.

Manic meaning fidgeting constantly, running everywhere, talking nonsense, not listening or trailing off in the middle of sentences and beginning a new conversation, unable to sleep, impulsive behaviour (stealing food from others plates).

Aggressive being shouting, swearing (in the 'child' sense, think 'shut up' 'stupid. 'hate you!') being violent to myself and her father, going from 0-100 (in terms of calm to raging) and not being able to calm down once she is up a height. She has also kicked the cat in her rage. We have told her we will get rid of him if we even think she might do that again, for his safety.

Intrusive thoughts are mostly about private parts (I'll spare you the details) but essentially the growing realisation that everyone has them, and that she wants to look at everyones all the time. Or saying that she is 'thinking about private parts' all the time. Shes also making up horrible songs/rhymes in her head (and telling us, in guilt) that she can't get out. Shes asking us constantly if we are going to 'tell on her' for every little infraction and believes the police/school are going to get her if she does anything wrong.

The worst ones are the things she has come out with such as 'I want to punch someone to death with my hands' and thinking the recent fire in london was 'really funny'.... I honestly dont know what to do. i think I am going to book an appointment with the GP for a chat as its (her behaviour) has changed so much in such a short period of time.

Has anyone had any experience of this before?
What would you advise?

I don't have anything to add OP other than I really hope you find out what's going on soon so whatever it is can be put right for your DD, poor little thing if it is something that has happened or been said to her, be prepared that it might take a while for her to open up

Have come back and only scanned through the thread but caught the details of the baby "game" and really need to inform you OP that this is exactly the kind of thing my daughter comes out with, and only since she was abused. She is also fascinated/horrified by the concept of death (both at the same time) and matches up with most of the behaviours you have described here, even down to the "bad songs stuck in her head".

I really hate to be so negative but I genuinely think you need to question who you trust. It was my long term partner who was, by all accounts, amazing with DD, who was abusing her. It can sometimes be the people you would never have suspected. So very very sorry to say this though and I genuinely hope it's nothing of the sort.

VanellopeVonSchweetz99 we also searched for real life like baby doll and stumbled on a birthing video!

LittleBeautyBelle "Even though this site is anonymous, I debated whether to open up to you all and I did because of the Op's post. I kind of wish I hadn't now. It wasn't easy and I almost didn't press post message. I hope I've helped someone with my experience."

Belle it was brave of you to share your own experiences. I think maybe what people are reacting to is the emotive language and insistence that this problem can only have one cause. I do not think a single person has suggested ruling out abuse, and many people think some form of abuse may be relevant. However, the OP really needs professional help to get to what is going on here. I think it is true to say we all want to know the OP has managed to find out the cause and help her child. I am sure the OP will take all this advice on board.

Maisy84 I am sorry to hear that.

HowsConfusion can you say how you know this is OCD and what your experience of it is, please?

I;ve just googld Pandas, partly because I thought it was a typo and had no idea why you were saying it!

www.pandasnetwork.org/understanding-pandaspans/what-is-pandas/

We've had trouble recently with my dd (much older -12) of a different nature but I may look into this. Would you mind if I pmed you, I don't want to derail.

Just to say on the OCD front, I had it as a teenager, un-diagnosed. I actually believed that I might have accidentally knocked someone over on my bike and not known I had done it at the time. It is the strangest thing to believe things that you know on one level are not true but believe may be true on another level! Anyway, I just wanted to mention that.

OP sending you my thoughts and hopes for the best possible solution in all this.

LollipopsandWine so very sorry.

Op, I hope you are seeking profetional help for your dd and I hope you get some answers. I don't think it's necessarily related to abuse although it seems odd that it's come on all of a sudden. I work in mental health though I'm not expereanced in children's mental health, there are a few things that stand out and the fact that you have had MH issues yourself ( it often runs in the family ). I have dc's with ASD but I don't think your dd is desplaying ASD traits but there are worrying traits that could be linked to OCD and other conditions.

Please push for help from specialists. Don't rule out abuse but also look at other possibilities.

This is very worrying op I hope you can get to the bottom of this and your dd will be ok

OP I have nothing to add, but wanted to say that I hope you manage to find help for your DD.
This must be a so worrying for you

Those of you saying abuse, why do (some of) you jump to the conclusion that it is the OPs dd who has suffered the abuse and not the other little girl who as far as I can make out is the one who insists on playing the disturbing baby game?

From what I get from the OPs posts, at least an equally likely scenario would be that the other little girl has either been physically abused or exposed to porn and that her reactions are frightening the OPs dd and, combined with the stress of her greatgrandmother's illness, triggering OCD-like thoughts.

It does sound like like she is trying to make sense of what her friend is telling her. But I wouldn't rule anything out. Do you even know for sure if she is getting this stuff from her friend and not someone else but placing it on friend?

LittleBeautyBelle I hope I've helped someone
Yes, you did. For you

Are you sure its not something happened with the other little girl. She is saying the other girl is weird and making her uncomfortable. It doesnt need to have been an adult who has done something. Were there adults present when the birth game occured. I really hope its not abuse and you manage to sort.

I agree with others about ringing nspcc and speaking to school. Hope you and your little girl are ok. Hope you manage to find some help and work out whats going on

I think the teacher would be able to advise on how much time the girls spend together and on the dynamics of the relationship. I suspect the interest in private parts etc comes from there. Something is not right - and I hope it gets sorted soon - but I wouldn't jump to abuse straight away.

A guy at work had something similar happen to his daughter.... it turned out that his mums partner was abusing his daughter... it was horrendous
Hopefully you will get answers or improvement soon

Nobody knows what the cause of this behaviour is. So please everyone stop speculating. OP my suggestion to you is you go to GP and ask for an urgent CAMHS referral. This child needs to be assessed. By an experienced specialist clinician. Arm chair diagnosis is very dangerous and can be harmful people.

OP I sincerely hope your dd gets the help she needs.

Babymamamama please do not stop people speculating, they may be right. Many good suggestions and varied thoughts have been on this thread and could provide helpful suggestions for he OP or other people.

I sincerely hope the OP would not take any one person's diagnosis as red!

But she has at least got things to think about and pursue. This is the nature of Mumsnet, people share their knowledge and their ignorance and maybe something will be of use in the real world in which the OP will seek help for her daughter.

You are doing the right thing going down all avenues, see what the GP says and take it from there. Sounds like a very stressful and uncertain time for you op I'm sorry you have to go through it. Hopefully things will settle down soon and you can get some answers to move forwards

Nobody here can say for sure what it is obviously!

One poster can't decide it's definitely abuse (and it's dangerous to insist OP interrogate her dd. Thankfully OP knows better.)

Another poster can't decide it's definitely OCD.

People really need to stop presenting themselves as experts. It could have awful consequences.

OP, I think you're doing the right thing. Contacting GP and school is a must.

I'm worried about the other little girl. It's equally possible that she is suffering abuse and projecting it onto your dd.

FWIW, your dd reminds me of me a lot. I was abused by someone who was so far above suspicion it's laughable.

But that's my experience, and not necessarily your dd's.

Best of luck.

Have you arranged the doctors appointment now?

sounds very familiar.i don't want to scare you.it must be awful enough to think about already.but... from my experience of something very similar it was abuse. and from someone oh hell from someone we would neve rhave even put on a "list" of possibilities.
plus it was years before and had lay dorment. like ptsd the trauma can be squirreled away for the vunerable person because they cannot deal with it.so the brain protects you amd hides it.but it usually and will come and and can be either slowly or in an explosion of ways like you've written here.
it might not be.i pray it isn't. trauma through many things can lead to symtoms that cross over throughout any causes.its doesn't mean this isn't abuse.but it is so much better to be safe than sorry.
I would try the childlines.and nspcc.noone will hrut or blame you for this.you are safeguarding you child by getting advice and these people have hands on experience so can advice you in which direction to take it if they think you need to.or they could equally put your mind at rest
I'm so sorry this is happening.
I cant see this behaviour in this extreme being just "part of growing up"
take lots of care of yourself.and don't underestimate what strength and fight a family of love and care will bring to any situation.whatever this is your clearly want to help her snd that lovely.dont give up.push til its sorted.
lots of support here too if you need it.

p.s ocd isn't all about wahisn ghands and keeping things neat.there is the branch that cause extreme thoughts.that you could kill someone.that you could cause a bus crash or a plane to fall out the sky.and if a young person feels these things it would be all the more confusing I'm sure.

good luck.big hugs.xx

Can I please just echo the people saying don't jump to conclusions?

There are many scenarios that could lead to this.
As an ex teacher I have seen disturbed behaviour that had a huge variety of sources.

Yes, one is direct abuse, and of course this is a strong possibility.
Another could be the other girl is being abused and is somehow sharing that/doing that to OP's dd.

But the other suggestions are also totally possible, from OCD, to eye issues, to general stress.

In my opinion Great Granny being so ill is highly significant.
At around this age children become very aware of death and for some it is terrifying as they realise that at some point all those they love may die. For some that becomes 'It's my fault' and they get nightmares/intrusive thoughts etc.
My own dd went through a phase of not sleeping in case the house burnt down (it came from a visit to school by the fire brigade) and her behaviour was pretty bad/odd/unusual for a few weeks.

Many things can trigger this sort of change in a child.

I suspect that neither school nor GP will be able to refer you to someone quickly, that will only happen if they suspect abuse. You may need to ask around for a child psychologist and pay for a few sessions. definitely worth it.

I have had OCD which came on suddenly like this when I was 6. I am now in my fifties and it has been with me all my life, mostly controlled well with drugs.

Your history, combined with how she is behaving at home, screams OCD to me. She's got all this anger and fury bottled up because she doesn't know how to deal with the awful intrusive thoughts.

The great news is...it can be helped hugely with CBT and drugs if necessary!

So I've been hit and told I am 'stupid' today because I asked her to brush her teeth. I didn't react only said in a firm voice that it is not acceptable behaviour and it's quite upsetting to be spoken to like that.

She was about to flare up and then it switched off weirdly. She said she's been thinking about ladies parts and wondering if you can 'take them off'???

Honestly I don't know what's going on. I've got the apt booked with school at 9am mon and doctors phone consultation on mon 12-2pm hope it clears some of this weirdness up.

Op, sending you & your daughter

Hope you get some answers soon