To be very worried about this behaviour?

[poopsqueak]

I am worried about my daughters behavioural changes over the past month.

She is 5 and bright and loud to begin with. We have a very stable family life although we have seen some 'big' events over the past month (bridesmaid duty, family holiday, very ill Grandma)

Over the past month we have seen an alarming switch to 'manic and aggressive' with intrusive thoughts.

Manic meaning fidgeting constantly, running everywhere, talking nonsense, not listening or trailing off in the middle of sentences and beginning a new conversation, unable to sleep, impulsive behaviour (stealing food from others plates).

Aggressive being shouting, swearing (in the 'child' sense, think 'shut up' 'stupid. 'hate you!') being violent to myself and her father, going from 0-100 (in terms of calm to raging) and not being able to calm down once she is up a height. She has also kicked the cat in her rage. We have told her we will get rid of him if we even think she might do that again, for his safety.

Intrusive thoughts are mostly about private parts (I'll spare you the details) but essentially the growing realisation that everyone has them, and that she wants to look at everyones all the time. Or saying that she is 'thinking about private parts' all the time. Shes also making up horrible songs/rhymes in her head (and telling us, in guilt) that she can't get out. Shes asking us constantly if we are going to 'tell on her' for every little infraction and believes the police/school are going to get her if she does anything wrong.

The worst ones are the things she has come out with such as 'I want to punch someone to death with my hands' and thinking the recent fire in london was 'really funny'.... I honestly dont know what to do. i think I am going to book an appointment with the GP for a chat as its (her behaviour) has changed so much in such a short period of time.

Has anyone had any experience of this before?
What would you advise?

There goes the support network that is MN for poor poopsqueak.
Thanks a bundle Indy. you shitheads.

How did you discover that they had run this article about your thread? Xx

Someone dm'ed me the article that's how I found out.

OP, it's good that you have a plan in place and are accessing professional help.

It may help in the meantime to try to be aware of how you see and refer her symptoms. I think whenever someone terms behaviour 'manic', 'intrusive thoughts', etc - those terms serve to illustrate a particular problem/diagnosis. Especially in light of you having had MH problems before, you may automatically hear 'manic' = bipolar, intrusive thoughts = OCD.

There are lots of words/labels/ways of describing symptoms and behaviour that signpost to specific disorders.

It might help if you thought about her problems in less concrete terms - her intrusive thoughts may not be clinically significant intrusive thoughts seen in MH disorders - they may be thoughts which she is trying to process and having trouble with it that make her uncomfortable, so she is more aware of them and then try's to push them away which has the opposite effect. And that could be for any number reasons - normal developmental stage, exposure to something, reaction to an incident, abuse or MH problem.

Thinking of the issues she's having in vocab like that may make it less stressful for you and help in getting her accurately assessed.

I'm so sorry they've done this yes MN is a public forum but using your situation for clickbait is disgusting. As others have said, I hope the only good thing that comes out of it is that another child is helped somewhere. I certainly won't be buying the Independent again. Hugs to you, OP

Btw, you may find it helpful to keep a diary of her symptoms/what she says to pass on to the GP. Have done this before when supporting a family member through a mental health crisis and it meant I didn't forget anything when trying to access help for them.

Just in case it might help someone else:

youngminds.org.uk/

If you are a parent needing help, please contact our helpline.

Call the Parents Helpline

Call us for free Mon-Fri from 9:30am to 4pm – available in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

0808 802 5544

I'm surprised at the Independent. They've just gone down in my estimation to a par with rags like the Daily Fail.

OP I hope you get to the bottom of this and get your DD some help. I totally agree with other posters that questioning her in a pushy/graphic/leading way with the assumption that she is definitely being abused would be disastrous.

I found this thread after your story was used by a national newspaper in a story about the red flags or child abuse.

Your daughter is NOT showing the classic signs of being abused. But she is showing ALL the symptoms of a medical condition called PANDAS.

•sudden and dramatic onset of OCD, and/or food restriction and/or tics

Alongside other psychiatric and behavioural issues like: rage and aggression, anxiety, intrusive thoughts, sleep disturbances, hyperactivity and a host of others.

Your daughter's intrusive thoughts and the impulses that accompany them are OCD behaviours. The sudden and dramatic personality and behaviour changes you describe are what's key to the PANDAS diagnosis.

Paediatric Autoimmune Neurological Disorder Associated with Streptococcus. PANDAS is caused by the immune system attacking the basal ganglia of the brain as a result of an exaggerated immune response to a strep infection. It can be caused by viruses, in which case the disease is called PANS.

Most cases occur in children aged 4 to 9 years of age.

Your daughter needs to see a GP, but be prepared not all GPs know about PANDAS, so do your research.

Has she had a throat infection in the last few months, or a bright red rash in her perianal region?

She needs to see a GP, have a heist swap for strep, be blood tests for many things including testing for strep titers (shows an immune response to recent strep infection) and I would strongly push for a minimum 10 day course of penicillin.

My son had it just before his 5th birthday. Severe and sudden OCD and anorexia, followed by major behavioural changes, rage, anxiety, intrusive thoughts, violence and lastly tics. He had 3 courses of antibiotics and he only lasting symptoms he had symptoms are some mild vocal tics. The PANDAS 'tag line' is 'recognise the signs, save the child'.

There is a wealth of information online. Please do your research and act quickly - you can get your daughter back I promise.

Sorry for the lack of clarity in some of my response. I wrote in a hurry. Please feel free to message me for more information. There are support groups for parents on Facebook I can direct you to.

More info here: www.pandasnetwork.org/understanding-pandaspans/what-is-pandas/

@poopsqueak I've tagged you because @Finnkiki post below looks really helpful. I worried you may have left the thread because of the newspaper, and would miss it.

Since the journo deliberately and knowingly did this to the OP, I rather suspect the nspcc was tricked into making comment.

It's very easy to say 'I'm writing an article on child sexual abuse and the signs that a child might show if that's happening'.

Then the nspcc would think 'great! Getting the message out there, that's really positive'

I doubt the journalist would admit what they were going to do ... 'I've seen a poor parent trying to understand what might be happening with their child, and it could be a variety of things, but all very worrying, and I'm going to unethically expose this parent in a national newspaper and ignore all the other possibilities and potential causes, twist words and the situation in order to misrepresent this as definitely sexual abuse... fancy helping me do that?'

The nspcc would lose legitimacy and their position of authority by putting their name to this.

If you felt up to it OP, I'd complain to the nspcc, and that their quote has been used (misused) to comment on a specific child, in a situation which the nspcc would certainly not be able to make such sweeping conclusions ethically or professionally.

This journo has taken a family and written about them without their consent, and has made a difficult and upsetting situation much worse. Although technically the journalist would argue that the forum the parent posted on was in the public domain, ethically I'm sure you will agree this behaviour is unacceptable - to put the parents through this upset, and the possibility of the whole family, including this vulnerable child at risk of being identified. This article may well cause barriers to the family being able to get the help this child needs. And it must be recognized that the help needed is absolutely not predetermined as a social services/ police response to sexual abuse, as this has not been established. This child may need medical or/ and psychological help, or is showing trauma related to another child potentially showing signs of sexual abuse.

The actions of this journalist, and the publication of such an article is shocking and completely inappropriate. As the NSPCC appears to quote directly on this article, it lends an air of legitimacy to this article, and tacit approval of this journalists behaviour.

The poster is very upset and a source of support has now been closed down for her. This situation is not acceptable and it's shocking that both the Independent and the NSPCC would give their approval to be this type of journalism. And approval is exactly what will be understood by readers of this article.

(Sorry, am really not ok with this happening to you OP, it's utterly unacceptable in every way ).

Thank you so much for all your responses and they have definitely made me confident in my decision to seek help.

To the previous poster about pandas I will definitely look into it.

To the previous poster who spoke about journalistic integrity and complaining to the NSPCC I am doing exactly that. I am too unsure of how they could make a comment based on the little information I have given.

I have unfollowed and Iun-liked the independent today. A small act of defiance but it made me feel better!

How do we complain to the independent? I really think it's important that the article is pulled.

What's happened to you OP with that rag is indefensible and part of the reason I had my own thread on the 30days part as it seemed less "travelled" and I was scared of it being picked up. It's also why I'm scared to post again even though the support I received from posters was amazing.

What a shitty state if affairs. No doubt it will put others off of posting as well.

I hope you get to the bottom of your dd's behaviours OP, and soon

Hi OP, try not to worry overly about abuse. There is a lot of criticism from scientists about the accuracy of "symptoms" lists for abused children and there's a strong risk of creating false memories if you question along those lines. Hang in there until you see the GP.

I've tweeted the NSPCC, they're more likely to care about their public image than the Indy which has really gone down the toilet over the past couple of years

:(

@finnkiki

Thank you so much for that link.

My son was very poorly about 3 years ago following a streptococcalI infection which sent his immune system into overdrive, and he spent 3 months in and out of hospital. He displayed behavioural changes that were put down to steroids

Thinking of you OP.

So sorry you are going through this.
My first thought was PANDAS as well tbh, my son has had it, the change is immediate and remarkable..
Definitely look into and ask for a throat swab, these are not routinely done.

Thought I would update - and if any journos are hiding I explicitly DO NOT give any permission for this to be shared.

School cancelled the meeting - teacher off sick.

Doc was lovely. She asked prudent/difficult questions and was very honest. Asked if she had been in the care of anyone new or suspicious. I said no. Asked if there had been big changes or bereavement in the family. I said yes. (Great Grandmother who is dying)

She said she would have been more shocked if I had made the call 6 months ago but that she has a 5yo who has scarily displayed some of the same behaviours directly after a family bereavement a few months back. She even said her daughter had said 'I am going to kill myself' and became disruptive/aggressive/confused.

She said (very honestly) that child mental health services are absolutely overwhelmed at the minute and that if she referred to them they would bounce it straight back. So she has asked us to monitor for another month and work with the school to understand what is happening there. She said I need to report the 'game'. She has booked me another appointment in a month and if the symptoms are the same she will refer my daughter to child mental health services.

So she does think its a poss mental health prob? Have you looked up intrusive thoughts? ( apologies if you have!) as it could partly be ocd, as she's so young she may not know how to deal with it.

Another one about to check Facebook and remove the independent.
Shame because it's the only news feed I follow but disgraceful behaviour.
Would be tempted to go private or email the GP for a referral now. The chances of child services being less stretched in a month are zero.

Thanks for the update. I hope she settles down, and if not that you get tO the bottom of it and can find her some help.