AIBU- ADHD child potentially excluded from trip

[theSnuffster]

My 8 year old son has recently been diagnosed with ADHD. We have always seen an increase in negative behaviour at school when he is taught by a different teacher. Last week his usual class teacher was out of the classroom lots and the cover teachers reported rude, disrespectful behaviour and lots of backchat. This week his teacher will again be out of the classroom a lot. His class are going on a trip on Friday to an outdoor activity centre. Today his teacher told me that basically if he is rude and disrespectful to the cover teachers again this week he won't be allowed to go on the school trip (which we have already paid for.) He's made a reward chart where he can gain smiley faces. AIBU to think that this is a very harsh punishment for rudeness? And that he's setting him up to fail? Especially as it's something he struggles to control. It's really no different to punishing him for not being able to sit still for long/ for being loud/ for not concentrating or paying attention for long periods. It's all part of his ADHD (for which the school are currently offering no support because he's doing very well academically which they say means they don't have to actually 'do anything'.) Is this really much different to punishing a child with a physical disability for something they struggle to do? AIBU to ask that they don't continue with this reward chart? Just to add that I don't think they're trying to find a way to stop him from going on the trip- or at least it wouldn't make sense for that to be the case- there are no safety issues, he's not a danger to himself or others, wouldn't wander off. At worst he'll be over excited and loud.

It's very unlikely that I'll be able to get the day off work (I work on a term time contract so don't get 'holiday')

YABU - my DD has ADHD it's not an excuse for rudeness. Frankly once they are adults no one is going to give a crap that they have ADHD when they are rude at work , they will just be fired so don't let him use it as an excuse, it's setting him up to fail. My DD is in specialist school I fully support the school and make it very clear how unacceptable it is to be rude and disrespectful and support sanctions put in place.

YANBU. I think the important feature of this is that the school is doing nothing to address your son's ADHD because of their mistaken belief that it doesn't "count" so long as he is doing well academically. They really need to learn NOW that this is a disability for which they must make reasonable adjustments, and for which they must also make provision. If they had any sense they would be getting professional advice about how to get over his difficulties with cover teachers, e.g. by preparing him well in advance, and making sure he has support in place.

Punishing him for the effects of a condition for which they are not providing adequate support is like punishing a child in a wheelchair for failing to stand up. I would suggest dropping in a few references to the Equality Act, and maybe what a shame it would be if you had to consider a disability discrimination claim.

The thing about the constant praise and reward is that it is really hard to do in actuality, even with the best of intentions. I'm sure it is effective but if he doesn't have an EHCP and with budget squeezes, in KS2 there likely won't be a full time TA with the class that can help with this.

I teach Y4 and there are so many children that I wish I could give more time to on a daily basis. But when you are in the middle of a lesson and X hasn't understood and Y needs a new book and Z has had a falling out with A over break so isn't happy and you really need to work with the group of children who are below expected, it's really hard. I have TA support for less than an hour a day - there are children with SEN but they don't have EHCPs and there is literally no money to support them further.

And it's not just the children with SEN. There's also those having a tough time in their personal lives for whatever reason, those who struggle with speaking English, the quiet ones who lack confidence ...

Yes the school needs to make reasonable adjustments for your DS but it's extremely hard for schools to do this well given current budgets. And that doesn't help anyone.

I'm a teacher, and I have a son with ADHD, he isn't diagnosed because of his age and his dad has issues around labelling (another story) but everyone can tell within 5 minutes he has it. If his teacher said he couldn't go on a trip I would feel gutted for him, he is very impulsive, has the attention span of a goldfish, but he knows when he is being rude. I think no trip is a big leap though, another shorter punishment would have been better. Schools are really struggling at the moment, so if your son is quite high achieving then they are not going to get extra funding or pull TAs away from other classes, just work as much as you can with his teacher. I did cover/supply too and it USC a nightmare, sometimes you get thrust into a class and you don't know anything about the class. Trips are very stressful for teachers, would they consider allowing you to accompany them? Your son sounds like he may be a handful, so maybe this is their way of secretly not having to deal with him. It it is, it's very awful.........

Hope this can be resolved for you

Op you should post this on the SEN boards.

Unfortunately ADHD is still fairly misunderstood in schools. I've seen numerous children with ADHD behaving terribly. However, I have also witnessed these same children being treated dreadfully by the adults that complained about their behaviour. No compassion, no empathy and a total lack of understanding. These poor kids are often beyond frustrated and so angry because of the treatment they receive. I totally agree that ADHD shouldn't be used as an excuse but equally I can see why some end up presenting with challenging behaviour.

And where exactly has the op posted anything which suggests her son would cause an insurmountable safety risk? The school having even suggested it - even though it would have been a fairly easy get out for them.
People have presumed safety risk.because the child has Adhd. Prejudice plain and simple.

t does highlight why life is so bloody hard for disabled people when so many people think kids can be disciplined out of their disabilities.

This. (Hey, Polter! How's life for you and DS at the mo?)

OP, I hope you post on SN children. I'd no more expect sensible advice on AIBU on neurodevelopmental disability than I would expect it to snow tomorrow, sadly.

Mumoftu

I haven't said "insurmountable safety risk", others may have but I have just been answering (some of) your points.

The problem is that this sort of thing is very rarely black and white, and frankly given the state of funding and further reductions in funding for schools, it is only going to get worse.

sleeponeday, so does that then mean that our children are not to be disciplined ever? so then when do our children actually learn anything? when do they learn whats right from wrong? if they cannot learn whats right from wrong then we are teaching them they cannot be independant.

I have a child with Asd who likes throwing things when he has a meltdown, we took it for a while and then decided he was learning nothing from talking to him, we then decided each time he threw things and broke them he would then pay for them, it took a long while but he started getting the message.

Children with sen can learn, it may take a while but they can and I know this through having children o the spectrum and working with them. What will you do if you have not prepared your child properly for when you are gone? they need to be taught to live with other people and to llive independantly and the basics are if you do not teach them right from wrong where will they end up?

The problem you have is the severity or more particularly, lack of severity of your DS's condition.

Because he can cope so often, he is expected to cope more than he possibly can. But that's what happens with everyone, and all conditions, things are taken on a scale, and there are cut off lines where there are tolerated/not tolerated, helped/not helped. Those near the cut off lines will find it hard.

My DS has some traits of ASD, but not severe enough for a diagnosis. But those traits make it harder for him to focus on his work, and get things done. He just has problems with his executive functions generally. But he has had to learn the skills, like it or not. He doesn't get extra time in exams, he is held to the same standard as other students when it comes to marking exams, etc, etc. It is what it is, and fighting against it is pointless and counterproductive because he IS capable of it, it will just take more work for him to get there.

OP apologies I haven't rtft. I too have a child with quite severe adhd. He cannot handle change in routine. It sends his anxiety through the roof and causes disruptive and frankly sometimes abusive behaviour. We are lucky to have amazing professional care where I live and a school just for children with adhd. Every professional involved with ds constantly tells me it is very typical and something people just don't understand. Punishments for bad behaviour need to be short and immediate and then the slate wiped to try and begin positive reinforcement.
Please keep pushing for support and perhaps challenge them when they say he is coping. Clearly he isn't if he is having anxiety and outbursts. You're not alone

notanevilstepmother
Thank you. I try to be balanced on this because I've seen the difference a range of different approaches between home and school can have on children. I've also heard from pupils with ADHD during pupil voice who have some interesting views and experiences.

I would imagine that the cover teacher probably hasn't helped, equally jumping straight to 'he can't help it' also doesn't help.

Arguing as some have done that he can't help it but could control it on the trip isn't helpful because all it does it reinforce the view that exists out there that some people like the ADHD label rather than bad behaviour. Sure I think some do, but most know it's a bloody difficult journey.

There needs to be a middle ground where strategies are used to support the child, but the child is also accountable for their behaviour. The two go hand in hand. Expecting the child to be impeccable without assistance is unreasonable. Equally, using a diagnosis as a get out of jail free cards is equally unreasonable.

muckypup I'm not interested in talking to you. Full stop. I find nothing of worth or value in your contributions here, and I am not going to discuss my family and our very neurodiverse history with you, now or ever.

sleeponeday, oh dear.

My goodness there is some ignorance about ADHD on here.
Rudeness absolutely can be a feature of ADHD because children with ADHD can be VERY impulsive. They say things without any thought for the consequences. Yes it's wrong, yes it needs to be corrected and the child needs to be supported in learning self control but banning them from a school trip won't fix the problem because it won't cure the lack of impulse control.
My DS has ADHD he is rude a lot to people he knows. He never gets away with it when I am around but it still happens. He knows when he has said something inappropriate and is pretty much always sorry afterwards. He gets upset and frustrated with himself (to the point of tears) because nasty words pop out before he realises. He is improving but it takes time - a lot of time and support and understanding. Punishment doesn't really help other than making him feel even worse about himself.

I always find these threads so difficult. Our neurodiverse children do have difficulties that affect their behaviour, but before their disability, first and foremost, they are children and children are very clever, no matter how much their neurodiversity limits their abilities in other ways, and they know exactly how far they can push the envelope of behaviour. I'm not saying that it's all deliberate, or even planned, but they soon learn where the path of least resistance lies and who can blame them from following it? It's human nature.

DD1 is neurodiverse, if you like. Paid up, physical brain malformation, special school, blah blah. Just about to go to special secondary school. I arrived at her after school KIDS club to see her half way up a tree, with her play worker looking a bit frantic, saying that she was just about to radio for assistance because she couldn't get DD1 (11) to get down. I said 'DD1, I'm going to count to three and you are going to get down from that tree, NOW!' She got down. In a fair grump, it has to be said. When I asked her later why she hadn't got down for her play worker, she sneered and said 'She's just a teenager, you're more scary!' Awful attitude! But she'd learned that she didn't have to do as her play worker said, because they had been saying 'I'll call X' (the manager) if the children didn't do as they were told. They'd demoted themselves to 'sister and brother' level in her eyes (and those of a few other children).

Once we knew what the problem was, I worked with the manager to reinforce the authority of her play workers, and we told her that they were the bosses. It only took a couple of sessions to turn it around.

It is harder for our children, but they'll have to live in the same world when they're older. It's all very well insisting on overlooking rudeness in the classroom in the name of reasonable adjustments, but it won't help him later in life. Wouldn't it be better to ask for them to work with him to reduce his rudeness with this supply teacher? I don't think it should be inevitable.

Absolutely; DS has meltdowns, and he also has tantrums. They are very different and need very different treatment, but not everyone can tell. I once had a teacher approach us in huge concern because he was wailing - he was wailing because I wouldn't buy him a piece of crap he'd been pleading for all week. But a true meltdown from sensory overload? He's not in control of that. It's very, very different.

ASD kids all vary, obviously, but mine can be naughty as all getout at times. That's not the same as him struggling with overload of one sort or another - if he's bolting and needs restraint, he's not doing it because he wants to run in front of a truck, or is angry he's not got his own way. His rational mind has left the building. And no amount of discipline or strategy, other than avoiding sensory stresses as much as possible, can alter that.

His paediatrician commented on this that she finds it frustrating when people think discipline can, eg, make an ASD kid handle a huge concert as "overcoming a challenge". Her view is that it's like removing the wheelchair of a kid with cerebral palsy to improve their muscle tone. It's a recipe for the sort of behaviour some would punish over.

DS tends to be fine with all sensory stresses removed. But that's impossible except for fairly brief stretches of time. And when he is chronically stressed and anxious, adopting discipline methods that will increase that is counter-productive - whatever worked on someone else's neurotypical kid (or, indeed, disabled one).

OP, have you asked your paed to put together a list of recommendations for your DS, for school? Or to talk to the head? Both DS's paeds offered to do both, and it was helpful; school then have a legal obligation to make the necessary reasonable adjustments, which should reduce his stress levels.

Hang on in there. It's a steep learning curve for all of us.

sympathy, OP. I have ADHD ds who had a shit time at primary because of lack of understanding and a bizarre system of delayed punishment for impulsivity. I am a strict parent with respect for manners and behaviour. However, with ADHD you have to learn to understand. These children really suffer.

I think I know what you mean OP, and you may have got a better response in SN Children.

There are a few separate issues here which are getting tied together which is totally unhelpful.

The first is the rudeness/impulsiveness/lack of filter coming across as rudeness. Of course, it's not okay, and it needs addressing. However, his usual teacher will likely understand that he has some difficulties and want to reward or recognise small improvements. Indeed, this is far more productive than constantly getting at a child. Feeling like you have no possibility or chance to succeed, improve, or achieve is hugely demotivating and is more likely to lead to outcomes where he looks for rewards from other sources than the teacher. For example, making his comments more outrageous or shocking which will win him amusement and respect from the other children. It doesn't matter in that scenario that he gets punished by the teacher, because he was going to get punished or lose the reward anyway, so he's aiming for a totally different one. If schools want to have influence over a child's behaviour then it's absolutely essential that they keep the child focused on the rewards that they want them to be, which don't have to be spectacular or huge, they just need to be achievable and have some sort of value to the child.

Second is that a supply teacher is likely to jump on him quicker and harsher than the usual teacher would, because they know they are at a disadvantage behaviour management wise, and they need to show the class that they don't accept poor behaviour. They aren't necessarily going to take this delicate balance part into account because they don't have the information on the class and they don't have the class all the time. But I don't think that a supply teacher ought to have the authority to cancel trips, mainly for this reason.

It sounds like the class teacher is very stressed and is trying to address this with a sticking plaster (the smiley face chart) rather than actually addressing it properly. It may be that they literally don't have the time in the day to do it, depending on the reason they are out of the class, and the situation with the cover teachers.

Either way it feels unfair to me. And I can see why it would look fair to someone who doesn't understand ADHD but I think it's fundamentally unfair.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the behaviour is ignored because 'he can't help it'.
But the grand gesture of the removal of a big treat is not going to make any difference to future behaviour and is just plain mean.
Anyone who came on here saying one of their kids had been rude recently so they were going to take all the siblings to the theme park and leave the one who hadn't been behaving well at home would be getting their arse handed to them. And that's without the added factor that this child's ADHD is contributing to him finding it difficult to meet expectations.
Would it be fair for a child with dyslexia to be banned from a trip if their spelling didn't improve in a week? Because this is the same.

I've asked for this to be removed because I've been identified.

Oh that's shit, I'm sorry.

Put simply: you cannot discipline a child out of disability any more than you can pray the gay away. Either a child is disabled, and by definition not behaving in a certain way by choice, or they are not. And I would tend to trust a specialist paediatrician's view on that over anyone else's.