AIBU- ADHD child potentially excluded from trip

[theSnuffster]

My 8 year old son has recently been diagnosed with ADHD. We have always seen an increase in negative behaviour at school when he is taught by a different teacher. Last week his usual class teacher was out of the classroom lots and the cover teachers reported rude, disrespectful behaviour and lots of backchat. This week his teacher will again be out of the classroom a lot. His class are going on a trip on Friday to an outdoor activity centre. Today his teacher told me that basically if he is rude and disrespectful to the cover teachers again this week he won't be allowed to go on the school trip (which we have already paid for.) He's made a reward chart where he can gain smiley faces. AIBU to think that this is a very harsh punishment for rudeness? And that he's setting him up to fail? Especially as it's something he struggles to control. It's really no different to punishing him for not being able to sit still for long/ for being loud/ for not concentrating or paying attention for long periods. It's all part of his ADHD (for which the school are currently offering no support because he's doing very well academically which they say means they don't have to actually 'do anything'.) Is this really much different to punishing a child with a physical disability for something they struggle to do? AIBU to ask that they don't continue with this reward chart? Just to add that I don't think they're trying to find a way to stop him from going on the trip- or at least it wouldn't make sense for that to be the case- there are no safety issues, he's not a danger to himself or others, wouldn't wander off. At worst he'll be over excited and loud.

Maybe staff have refused to take him?

Can you offer to go with him? After all you know him best

That's the other thing, people don't understand that the medication has serious side effects and the fact he is not on medication can be for various reasons e.g he has other co morbidities that will be affected negatively by the medication. His body may not tolerate medicatIon, GP may be of the personal belief that school can manage his behaviour and so hold off on medication.

Medication is usually last resort.

Those saying he has never been rude to strangers but is rude to cover teachers, it can't be both.

Strangers aren't making any demands on him or having any direct control of his environment, agree this may cause issues at the activity centre.

I supported a young man with complex needs on a residential stay at an outdoor centre within his part time mainstream placement (ASD and a visual impairment, query oppositional diffiance disorder). Teachers and staff at the centre were incredibly good at an inclusive approach for his VI but his constant chatter, sensory issues reguarding safety equipment and issues transitioning at the pace required meant that I was pushed to make a call about his immediate mental health versus the 'success' of including him. We cut the trip short as I believed it was in his best interests but the experience had a profound impact on him, he saw returning alone early as a failure and his mainstream placement nearly broke down entirely as a result of his frustration. It remains one of my biggest professional regrets although I still don't know the right answer.

With regards your DS, this kind of punishment in kids with ADHD at least warrants some trial and discussion with you before being introduced. I think if this is the first time this kind of approach has been used with him then a place on a school trip seems like very high stakes for a 'game' he hasn't played before. I think on those grounds you'd be entitled to contact the school

School needs to be much more intelligent in it's response to your DS. They clearly (like most of the "experts" on this thread) believe that your DS is "choosing" this behaviour and that therefore if he just tries harder / better he can stop.

Rudeness, I might say, isn't a "core feature" of any disorder that I am aware of. Children with autism make social mistakes that others interpret as rude because they have poor social understanding, or poor understanding of their social position. Children with ADHD might make mistakes that others interpret as rude because of poor social judgement, poor understanding of social hierarchy, and / or poor impulse control. Having a different teacher knocks his resilience and changes his "coping tool belt". I would hazard a guess that a) he knows it is not appropriate to be rude to teachers and b) he dislikes being in trouble and would like to go on this trip. In which case, it isn't that he "won't" behave, but that, for some reason the school should ideally analyse and support, he "can't". There will be a lagging (not well developed) skill at play here.

Fwiw if you can make a case that his "misbehaviour" is caused by his ADHD, then school should avoid "less favourable treatment'" of him for causes that arise from his ADHD. Banning him from a trip is a less favourable treatment' and if they have not attempted to accommodate him through reasonable adjustments (eg, extra adult in his group, arrangements to go home in a taxi with extra adult if he can't cope, or whatever) then the school could be in breach of the Equality Act. I might mention this if school is obstructive....

Yes trifle, you're right, we do have our own opinions; the reason I am cross is because my own DS suffers so much from people thinking he can control himself when actually he can't all the time. So probably I am projecting - but it is hard to see his frustration when teachers punish him for his impulsivity, and lack of control and when they ask why if he could do it one day why can't he do it another day . I do get frustrated when people don't get it.

Nobody is saying your child doesn't have ADHD. What people are saying is that ADHD can't be used to justify poor behaviour in one context but then decide in a fun context that it wouldn't be a problem.

Equally, it's not about him 'holding it in all day', it's about devising a range of strategies rather than excusing his behaviour or explaining it away.

I work with many children who have ADHD and there is a correlation of behaviour between those who use strategies and parents dont use ADHD to explain away poor behaviour and attitude etc and those who have been given the 'they can't help it it's their adhd'. Massive differences. (Ditto as I've said by secondary when I've had students tell me they've worked out which members of staff they can get away with stuff because kids aren't daft. Kids are ekids whether they have adhd or not)

The doctor has made a decision that the adhd isn't enough to require medication. There is no statement of send needs. Therefore there is ADHD as you've said, but not severe enough to require intervention. They'd only say that if they are happy that it can be managed without. That means boundaries and it means not explaining away class behaviour as lack of control but then arguing it can be managed on a trip.
I'd argue based on my experience with children is if it can be managed for the fun things it can be managed during non fun things.

Squeegle

I understand that it is frustrating.

From the (possible) perspective of a teacher, please understand how frustrating it is when people make excuses for seriously disrespectful and rude behaviour, using ADHD as the basis. It isn't always the case that the behaviour is beyond the control of the child, and it does them no favours to suggest otherwise. Again in my opinion.

What 'reasonable adjustment' do you think the school can make here, especially without a statement and presumably without then 1-1 support?

If the trigger is having a different teacher, that's part and parcel of being in a mainstream class. The school can't drag the teacher in if they are sick, have a funeral to go to, new induction sessions or meetings to go to.

It's fair enough.

"Part of this is choice and lack of consistent consequences"

Sigh! If it were that simple, ADHD wouldn't be an issue for anyone!^

Did you miss the word "part"? I totally understand that children with ADHD struggle with appropriate behaviour but they are still children and children do learn very quickly that certain members of staff never follow up any behaviour issues and they are invariably worse for them.

My students with ADHD are by no means perfectly behaved even though I follow their behaviour plans to the letter (as best I can). If they've told me or my TA to fuck off or thrown a chair, there have to be consequences for that.

Some people seem to think we allow him to be rude. That is not the case. If he says something rude at home I speak to him about it, every single time, without fail. I explain that what he said was not nice/ kind/ polite/ whatever. I talk about how that makes a person feel, about how he would feel if someone spoke to him that way. He doesn't comprehend that what he's said could upset someone or make them cross. He doesn't have the emotional maturity. We do not simply allow him to get away with any of these behaviours. That doesn't stop them happening though!

There is a lot of ignorance on this topic.

Now I'll just wait to be told that I'm unreasonable for expecting and supporting children with ADHD to use the range of strategies which they've told me about, the SENCO has told me about and parents because life isn't going to give a free pass and part of teaching them is to help them manage their ADHD so that they can access the full curriculum and trips etc.
Sure, there are more challenging days and we work with that in a caring way and sanction if required (though that rarely happens because of how calm and consistent the room is).
I'm such a meanie though in thr eyes of this thread for not just saying "timmy can't help it".

It doesn't matter how severe it is or isn't, medicated or not, the school is required by law to make reasonable adjustments, such as an extra member of staff for a trip, and to be understanding that upset at a change in routine might be behind behaviour not "naughtiness". Hence reassurance might be more appropriate than punishment.

I've messaged you op.

What I meant when I said he's likely to be 'fine' on the trip is that he'll be engaged, doing something physical, something he'll probably be interested in, getting rid of that excess energy. He takes part in forest school and is generally fine because he's moving around and being active. Same with sports. This is similar. When he's expected to sit for however long and write, he's like a coiled spring and eventually just has to move, he can't stay still any longer.

My son has asd, so not ADHD but perhaps some similarities, there are plenty of crossovers.
He isn't rude to strangers, however he was often rude to cover teachers, there was no choice in the matter. Usually it was a surprise that there was a supply in, so the change threw him. Also, his regular teacher knew all the pupils fairly well, whereas the supply didn't, so treated them a bit differently and did lessons in a different way. This bothered him to the point where he would feel out of control, would fidget more, refuse to do as they asked and could answer back.
You cannot judge neurodivergent children to the same standards as their neurologically typical peers, and whilst you can sometimes have similar expectations, you cannot underestimate the need for support to reach the same developmental stage and level of control and understanding.
As always AIBU is full of people with opinions on things they clearly know very little about.
Op if I were you I'd post this in the SN section where you won't have to defend yourself and your son from people's ignorant opinions!

theSnuffster,you say you talk to him about his rudeness but no consequences? perhaps this may be whats going wrong?

It's not about "can't help it" it's about why is he doing this and what strategies does he have.

It sounds like you are very clued up Maisiepops and that's great, but I would bet my last penny that the cover person (probably not even a qualified teacher these days) isn't clued up, and is probably not helping the situation.

CloudPerson, do you think none of us have specail children?

I understand that he needs to get up and move around, OP. But that isn't the issue. The issue is his tendency to answer back and be rude if he is told no, isn't it? What happens if he doesn't see why he needs to stop an activity, or he gets an impulse to do something dangerous to another student? If the only experience the school has is that he can't be relied on the follow instructions, it's natural that they will worry about taking him. Your word that he will be fine won't outweigh what they have seen with their own eyes. Sorry, but that is just the reality.

Maybe consequences aren't the right way to deal with this.

Will the trip be any fun for him though? I have done enough school trips to know some children with SEN or behaviour problems find them impossible to cope with.
It's all very well to say he can go home in a taxi with support but that's if you can can him safetly in the taxi.
Having experienced a girl who would get very aggressive and arguementitive and break things the best technique was to walk away. She didn't break things unless she had an audience and calmed down much quicker than been talked to or reasoned with. If your son is similar then being ignored in public on a trip out won't be possible.

"If the trigger is having a different teacher, that's part and parcel of being in a mainstream class"

If the trigger is having a different teacher, then the child should be supported to cope with that, and the supply teacher given a range of strategies to help the boy.

You cannot expect someone to suddenly be able to cope with things because the "real world" dictates it, without help to get to that point, for as long as it takes.
Honestly, I despair that some of you are teachers and don't have this basic understanding. It's honestly setting up so many children to fail.

Can I recommend a book called Lost in School by Ross Greene, to anyone with a child who struggles and to any teacher who reads this. It might just help more children than the rigid attitudes displayed here!

Mucky, not at all, I just think the SN section is a better place to get SN advice.

CloudPerson, the op did not say the child has asd, I maybe totally wrong but asd children are routine bound not adhd as far as I am aware, although I could be wrong xx