AIBU- ADHD child potentially excluded from trip

[theSnuffster]

My 8 year old son has recently been diagnosed with ADHD. We have always seen an increase in negative behaviour at school when he is taught by a different teacher. Last week his usual class teacher was out of the classroom lots and the cover teachers reported rude, disrespectful behaviour and lots of backchat. This week his teacher will again be out of the classroom a lot. His class are going on a trip on Friday to an outdoor activity centre. Today his teacher told me that basically if he is rude and disrespectful to the cover teachers again this week he won't be allowed to go on the school trip (which we have already paid for.) He's made a reward chart where he can gain smiley faces. AIBU to think that this is a very harsh punishment for rudeness? And that he's setting him up to fail? Especially as it's something he struggles to control. It's really no different to punishing him for not being able to sit still for long/ for being loud/ for not concentrating or paying attention for long periods. It's all part of his ADHD (for which the school are currently offering no support because he's doing very well academically which they say means they don't have to actually 'do anything'.) Is this really much different to punishing a child with a physical disability for something they struggle to do? AIBU to ask that they don't continue with this reward chart? Just to add that I don't think they're trying to find a way to stop him from going on the trip- or at least it wouldn't make sense for that to be the case- there are no safety issues, he's not a danger to himself or others, wouldn't wander off. At worst he'll be over excited and loud.

Mucky pup there are consequences to an extent, yes. But as a general rule they don't work for him. I could take away everything he owns, stop every single fun thing, and he still wouldn't leave a thing from it.

What works better with him is praise and rewards. Praise every little thing and he's the happiest boy on the planet. It almost always helps. I can almost guarantee that this doesn't happen in school.

OP as ever you'd be better off taking this to one of the SN boards. You'll be inundated with messages from people who know fuck all otherwise.

Fwiw I'd ask the school what they have in place to support your ds due to his diagnosis. Do they think the processes in place help him? Do they think he is likely to fail this current challenge regarding the trip? I would suspect they know he will and would prefer him not to be there. It is possible to exclude children from a trip on safety grounds, however setting them up to fail is not how you go about it.

He's not been diagnosed with asd, no. But he does sometime struggle with change.

soapboxqueen, really?

theSnuffster, so do you think he is on the spectrum then?

Wow, just so much ignorance in this thread. Those of you giving the OP a hard time do you have children with ADHD?

My son doesn't go on school trips for the exact same reason. But I agree with the school with this. If he's having a good day he will be fine. If it's a bad day he would be wandering off, being rude and also violent when told off. So he doesn't go.

If the child is in mainstream school and CAMHS think he can try without medication. I doubt he will be running away. What to some people want with ADHD to have them all locked excluded from school just in case of health and safety. The very severe ADHD types who are in specialist school tend to have social and emotional problems too. My son is ADHD and never been excluded from a school trip. Although after school clubs has thought nothing of excluding him, unlawfully and yes I have fought every time. Dealing with very similar comments when they are made to apologise they get their act together and believe me it works out for everyone! Child happy and cared for, lots of charities gives free specialised 121 care. It causes great anxiety to a child been giving final warnings when some behaviour they really cannot help. My son went on a camp and had difficulties sleeping and taking instructions of course they used health and safety but if there is a way a child can be accommodated even with extra staff, that is what equality is all about.

As far as I'm aware it's things like answering back, or ignoring instructions.

As someone that takes pupils on 'adventurous' trips, this would be a major issue for me.

muckypup ADHD children need routine just has much as asd ones do.

My DS is just the same snuffster, o have been having ADHD coaching and have been advised that instant consequences (good or bad), are vital. So instant praise or instant rewards - or alternatively instant punishment. Waiting for consequences does not work with these children. And that's what is hard for schools to offer as their whole way of working is more long term. But as other posters say, they are obliged to make provision for him and taking him off a trip is not the appropriate punishment for low level disruption - some other short term negative consequence would be better.

On a complete side note try a band in his chair legs that he can twang with his foot or a wobble cushion on his chair. Ds loves his.

If u want to explore med route don't be afraid to push. My ds is quite severe but friends ds is mild and he takes a very low dose of stimulant and it's made big difference to his impulsiveness and attention.

I know he has ADHD, but as I pointed out in an earlier post, many neurological conditions have crossovers. He wouldn't be the first child with ADHD that I've heard of who reacts to change, therefore it would be a bit silly to rule that out when the op's posts point towards the change of teacher being the problem.

It's also very possible for the boy to cope with a trip because they are new surroundings with expectations of change and new things.

My eldest has ASD rather than ADHD. Changes in established routines cause him a great deal of difficulty, whereas going to somewhere new like an activity centre wouldn't as it's new so he has no fixed expectations IYKWIM.

I have found that school are quite rigid in expecting him to cope with changes - his class had 4 class teachers between Sept-January and his TA support was also changed once in that period. He had previously been a passive child but started to become rude - telling staff to go away, and writing notes saying to leave him alone or else. We backed school up, but I do regret not looking into it deeper at the time, as it transpired he was being dealt with appallingly and he ended up self-harming and in a terribly anxious state. It actually only took some very minor adjustments to make the rude behaviour disappear completely - being given a desk to himself and some communication cards. But most of all it was involving the Head who took a much closer look at what was going on in the classroom.

Peoples prejudices really come out on these threads! I'm not sure how a child back chatting got to be presumed a safety risk but ho hum
And it seems likely to me that the child's teacher knows him better and enables him to behave better through the strategies they use whereas cover teacher won't have as much knowledge/experience and may well draw different lines re acceptable behaviour which can be hard for any child to adjust to let alone one who struggles with impulse control.
Obviously he needs to learn to communicate politely and with appropriate deference to people like teachers. But I would argue that a big punishment like this isn't appropriate. Will the child never be rude again after this punishment? Unlikely. So all it will do is set him apart and make him feel rubbish about himself. Much better to work on day to day strategies that improve things than imposing this kind of grand gesture. Reminds me of when parents say Christmas is cancelled then expect perfect behaviour. What do you use for the rest of the year?
In your position op I would let them know that you are keen to work with them to improve behaviour. But I wouldn't agree to this sanction and I would complain if it is imposed. I would also want some specifics on exactly how he is being rude as that's quite vague. Then you can work on the specific things he's struggling with at home.

I've spoken to him (yes he is still awake, been in his bed in a dark room since 7.30pm and still can't settle!)

He says it's harder with other teachers because they don't know him. They don't know how the class usually works when his usual teacher is there. And 'they all do it a bit different so I don't really know what to do with each one, I can't remember.'

Mumoftu

It is fairly simple, if I or a course leader is giving out instructions they need to be listened to and not constantly questioned. It can cause important information to be missed

If something is about to go wrong and I can stop it from happening by saying something the child need to stop immediately and not talk back.

I have taken children to places that require a safety talk and specific types of clothes. If you don't listen to the safety talk you don't go in, there is no "why?" or "but?" etc.
If the clothes are not worn you also do not go in

We go to places were if I ask the group to stay in a specific area and a child ignores the instruction we can be told to leave as they will be walking in to a dangerous area.

Taught secondary for many years including pupils with ADHD, the outdoor sports centre activity was usually something they could do well in as it allowed them to channel their energy. I also did internal cover and supply, internal cover still throws most pupils with individual differences for a loop. Supply teaching can affect a whole class as many pupils including NT test the boundaries.
The star chart idea sounds great in theory but does not address the real issue which is lack of resources, lack of in-class support and lack of training to provide EBD kids with something better than a ''motivational'' tick-sheet of smart targets which are often not that achievable.

great white not all reasonable adjustments require a child to have a statement (which btw were replaced with ehcps almost 2 years ago) and / or one to one support. It is up to school and parent to meet to consider how he can be supported to attend, regardless of the usual arrangements in school. I don't know OP's Don and therefore what might help, but it could be things like parent comes on the trip, child travels in parent's car to venue, or extra adult in the group, put him in the group with familiar teacher not random parent helper, etc etc. The point is they have to try, not just say "he doesn't have an ehcp so he doesn't have dedicated 1:1 so he can't go".

Op on these threads you always get a depressing litany of mumsnetters who know little about send and less about the protections in law for disabled children. Ignore those posters, and ask the school to plan proactively to meet your son's relatively predictable needs on this trip rather than punishing him. And this isn't about "Timmy can't help it", it's about "Timmy's minority neuroarchitechture makes things more difficult for him in a reasonably predictable pattern which his parent can recognise and which falls within the recognised condition of ADHD, so let's accept that and plan to meet his needs instead of blaming him when we do fuck all that is supportive and he messes up in that predictable way".

I think some people need to remember that this is someone's child they're talking about. An 8 year old. He's not a monster, he's never violent or aggressive, he's actually very caring and loving. He's amazing in so many ways just like every other child in his class, and he deserves to have the same opportunities as all of them.

BoneyBackJefferson If there was a genuine rusk to safety then I'm sure the op would not want her child to attend. But the school haven't said he isn't able to go on the trip. If he is polite to teachers this week he will be going! I would hope though if it was something ad simple as a Ta needing to check back that safety instructions had been understood that would be a reasonable accommodation for a xgd with Adhd or indeed a pupil without fluent English/hard of hearing etc. Trips should be inclusive wherever possible.
And as for the ops child causing others to wait. Guess what? Kids might have to wait around for the child who is nervous and decides at the top of the ladder they can't go any further. Kids might have to wait around while a child has a nosebleed/is sick everywhere. A child having additional needs shouldn't mean they are excluded.

theSnuffster I owe you an apology for my earlier post in the thread, where I said I was impulsive but not rude. I was thinking about it and remembered an occasion in secondary school where a teacher told me to take my jacket off and I told him to "go fuck himself" I wasn't a rude pupil and it was so out of character for me - it was just impulsive and stupid.

I was more likely to play up for certain teachers too. Does this teacher have a particularly droning voice, or is particularly strict about moving around during class/any tapping or fidgeting your son does? I'm just wondering as those were big trigger points for me.

I don't think the consequence of losing the trip is appropriate in this situation. Consequences need to be immediate.

Of course he's not a monster, he sounds fun and you obviously love him to bits. Lucky boy
Can you go with him?

It does highlight why life is so bloody hard for disabled people when so many people think kids can be disciplined out of their disabilities.

It's crap OP, hope school settles for him soon and he gets the support he needs

Mumoftu

you posted

I'm not sure how a child back chatting got to be presumed a safety risk but ho hum

and that is what I responded to.

It could be (as you say) that all that is needed is a TA. Or 1-2-1. But sometimes the situation cannot be resolved so neatly.

And as for the ops child causing others to wait. Guess what?

Guess what. In some cases it could cause the rest of the class to not be allowed in, because the people taking the activity don't believe that the class will be safe.

A child having additional needs shouldn't mean they are excluded.

I never said that it does.

Mumoftu very sensible advice, it's unfortunate about some others on here. This is the type of discrimination ADHD children and their families regularly face. It's a disability. No wonder I have had to go to court and tribunals to just get his basics right when there are people with this attitude. My son is bright doesn't need 121 but when he does exhibit ADHD characteristics some places (not school) believe severe punishment is the best course of action at the first sign. Funnily enough I saw a kid obviously with learning difficulties and clearly a very low iq being excused for bad behaviour but sparky ADHD ones get more severe punishment. I then understood that peoples expectations can be too high for these children. They expect them to act normal and like there undiagnosed, and punish when they show characteristics of their disability.