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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that young people came out in record numbers for one simple reason that most people are missing?

397 replies

PumpkinPiloter · 11/06/2017 12:29

I believe that young people came out in record numbers because they wanted to vote for someone they could trust.

TM like many politicians before her see no problem in going back on her word. She is not alone in this and politicians have been guilty of this from both the right and left side of politics.

Despite your reservations or views on JC it is clear he has not gone back on his word since being elected as the leader of the opposition. He has stood by his word and fought a campaign based on policies he believed in and refused to use dirty smear tactics.

Perhaps people generally are sick of being lied to and electing politicians that seem to showmen/careerists first and representatives of the people second.

OP posts:
user1471545174 · 12/06/2017 20:42

Thanks sleeponeday for that very good explanation of quantitative easing.

sleeponeday · 12/06/2017 20:44

If that's your notion of Paradise - mutilation over petty crime - you're certainly entitled to it. Great thing about democracy - we're all entitled to our opinions. However, we aren't all entitled to our own facts.

Britain has the largest prison population in western Europe at 95,248, which is nearly 20,000 higher than France and 30,000 more than Germany, according to the latest Council of Europe figures. The annual statistics for 50 European countries show Britain is behind only Russia with its 671,027 prisoners and Turkey with 151,451.

Britain also has the highest population of prisoners serving life sentences: 7,468 in England and Wales and 1,010 in Scotland, compared with 1,953 in Germany, 1,599 in Italy and 466 in France. The proportion of those prisoners is also higher in Britain at 10% compared with a European average of 3%. This reflects the much reduced use of indeterminate sentences in the rest of Europe.

There are, however, fewer foreign nationals incarcerated in Britain than in other major western European countries. There were 10,834 foreign prisoners in England and Wales, compared with 14,688 in France, 19,562 in Germany, 17,457 in Italy and 20,125 in Spain.

These are all countries whose populations are either similar, or considerably greater than our own.

Please, do tell me more about how "soft on crime" we are, and how all of Europe knows it, and that's why we have so many immigrants over here, all wanting to commit crime. Preferably with evidence this time.

Booph · 12/06/2017 20:47

I don't actually know that the "no tuition fees' swayed it that much. I think it was more the social policies.

For a start those who would benefit most from free university were too young to vote. But also fees are paid by loans with payments that are deducted automatically, and the payments really aren't that noticeable as they leave your salary at the same time as your taxes. I remember when I was applying to university about ten years ago not really paying much attention to the fees part. Mine were £3500 a year at the time though of course. I pay about £60 a month and just consider it more of a tax than anything.

sleeponeday · 12/06/2017 20:48

You're welcome, User.

I'm pretty sure we have diametrically opposed political views, but facts are important. Even (perhaps especially!) when they don't go my preferred way. It's all fairly complex, innit.

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 12/06/2017 21:01

sleep

I have a feeling that unless we are going to start chopping bits off criminals then we will be seen as too soft

mumto2two · 12/06/2017 21:04

Regarding your post on the rapid decline in EU nurses..it's an interesting statistic, and I have to say, as someone who did marginally vote Remain, I have tried to ponder this rationally, both pre & post Brexit, but we are regulars at a particular large town hospital. Our daughter is a regular inpatient, and we have seen a massive change over the past few years. The vast majority of patients both outpatient and in..are nowEastern EU. And along with the other big majority of this town's local population, means that we have often been the only English speaking people on an entire ward. I have to say, I have often found that quite surprising. This change has happened so quickly. It may be a micro perspective small minded view, but I do think this is something that has put an enormous strain on our public resources, far more than any corresponding tax income could possibly counteract.
Having also worked in a volunteer capacity, I have always been impressed at how tax credit / benefit savvy these people often are. Yes they mainly work, and pay taxes, but it is more often than not in lower paid jobs, and weigh that up against the public services that have to be provided in return. Something has to give somewhere...

sleeponeday · 12/06/2017 22:05

I can't comment on the hospital point, other than to say that we've also needed a lot of medical care the past few years, and none of that has been my experience. Yet we live in an area with a large immigrant population in the city nearest to the county hospital. That's the problem with anecdote versus data, I suppose - each bases our view on our own experience. And another experience of mine is having European friends pay to return to their nations of origin for medical care, because their experience of the modern NHS is its being substandard compared to their own. We've been ranked 30th in the world recently, in terms of quality of care, down from 14th 3 years ago. And I doubt it's likely to improve any time soon, given current levels of funding.

Having also worked in a volunteer capacity, I have always been impressed at how tax credit / benefit savvy these people often are.

I've worked in a free advice clinic, and I hear you; some absolutely are. I've also met some who literally arrive in the country (one was pregnant and gave birth inside two weeks of arrival, and openly said that she'd been told by her friend that benefits were generous - she was horrified to learn her entitlement was zip and nada!) and seem amazed to hear that they aren't entitled to any benefit support, and yes, the NHS billing them for their planned maternity care is correct. But I met a lot more UK citizens with that attitude - and sometimes from people who were so chaotic otherwise, they would never have been capable of holding down any sort of job: their whole focus of income was the state, in perpetuity. I won't go into that further because you and I both know that it's way, way more complex than people on either side of that argument will accept.

Yes they mainly work, and pay taxes, but it is more often than not in lower paid jobs, and weigh that up against the public services that have to be provided in return. Something has to give somewhere...

Well, there's two points here. One is that you won't see the highly paid workers at a free advice clinic. It doesn't attract them as they can afford paid assistance. So you are often dealing with people who want support over benefits, and as they have the nouse to seek support, they will often be aware of their entitlements, because it's self-selecting as a client base. We don't know what those who never approach such services are like.

And then the other thing: we have almost full employment, at around 4% when 3% is deemed to be ideal. (in case anyone isn't aware: in economic terms, 0% unemployment is actually not great, because it means the economy has no worker flexibility - people can't fill new roles without leaving their old ones unfilled - and very little room for growth - if new businesses can't find workers, that brakes them really effectively. It's good for increasing wage levels, but not for the economy in general as those increases fuel huge inflation. If you have near to full employment, therefore, you need immigration to feed that growing economy. Losing migrant labour could be a disaster for us.)

That's the problem when you look at workers purely in terms of taxation paid, versus public services provided: their labour has intrinsic value to the overall economy. Extending that argument, people's contribution can't be restricted solely to their own tax bill, because they support the business that employs them via their labour, and thus the tax paid by both their employers and higher-paid staff where they work relies on what they can contribute, too - so everyone working has some economic value on that score. And that's without also factoring in the fuel they provide for the economy as consumers, as well - every time they eat a meal, buy some clothes, take a journey, they are fuelling the economy and contributing more to tax take. It's a lot more complex than saying you can assess economic contribution via one person's PAYE slip.

If the minimum wage is set at a level that is so low people need benefit supplementation in order to survive, that's a structural problem, and it affects anyone working. It doesn't actually matter where a worker comes from - someone is needed to fill that role, and they will need the benefit top-ups and public service provision, whatever. In fact I'd go further: in economic terms, there's a cost to the nation of raising a newborn to adult status. If we have immigrants, we've not paid for all those vaccinations, and early years medical care, let alone tax credits and housing benefit (mostly paid to working families, these days, due to housing costs) and child benefit and education costs. They arrive as adults, ready to join the workforce and fill a labour/skills gap, and we've paid sod all to get them there - some other country has. One of the problems with Brexit is that we're losing a load of young, working age people, while entirely possibly having to repatriate a lot of elderly retired folk who planned to live out their days in warmer EU climes, helpfully the responsibility of the local healthcare system. Because end of life care is not cheap, and when the Costa pensioners return, that's going to be on us.

I'm not uncritical of the EU, incidentally. It's a very flawed organisation. But that too is for another debate, I think! They're all such huge subjects, aren't they. So many angles to consider.

sleeponeday · 12/06/2017 22:09

I have a feeling that unless we are going to start chopping bits off criminals then we will be seen as too soft

Not sure whether to laugh or cry, tbh. But opting for the former! Grin

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 12/06/2017 22:11

sleep

Its funny cos its true Grin

mumto2two · 12/06/2017 22:40

I do agree Sleep, you've made some good points. And yes we certainly do have our fair share of indigenous lay abouts too, it is by no means one or the other. But I also think that having such a relatively huge increase in population, over a relatively short period of time, is from a micro town perspective at least, an inevitable public service burden. As you rightly say, it's a mammoth topic!

FriendPlease · 12/06/2017 22:55

I live in a wealthy area where most youngsters have voted for tories and also brexit. They won't feel the negative effects of anything as they will always have money and connections to fall back on. But they felt strongly that people get too many benefits and everyone just needs to work hard and they will be wealthy and successful...

Sausagesandroses · 12/06/2017 23:01

I am rich, distinctly middle aged, not in teaching or health, yet cannot consider anything other than voting labour as an ethical choice.

SomeOtherFuckers · 12/06/2017 23:47

I voted for him for exactly that reason ... he seemed genuine. People keep telling me his manifesto was impossible ... I agree but I'd rather have a man who believes ideologically in the right things than someone who may be more realistic but doesn't seem to be a good person. Naive maybe ... but it's my vote so my choice. If 18-25s are so stupid and unjaded then why not take the vote off us ... oh wait we're adults.

Dawndonnaagain · 12/06/2017 23:54

But they felt strongly that people get too many benefits and everyone just needs to work hard and they will be wealthy and successful...
Let's hope they learn enough as they get older, carer's work damned hard and people with disabilities didn't choose to be disabled.

user1495484765 · 13/06/2017 00:01

JC promised them the moon on a stick. After the Referendum young people complained about the result but it was then revealed that a lot of them had not voted for which they were castigated. This was a wake up call for them. Labour knew that they could target the youth vote and used social media very well to target them.

Teresa May was and never will appeal to the youth vote. JC has personality but questionable links to terrorist organisations - but how many youth will know about the IRA or care what that was all about? They care about their futures, not their past, and rightly so.

I voted Tory. Couldn't vote for Corbyn and Abbott - they even sound like a comedy act. However, even I found TM hard to warm to and voted Tory as the best worse option.

I am 52 now. I have lost all trust and faith in the lot of them. I actually don't want to vote anymore but I make myself. They will all say anything to get in power, and once in they will do anything to stay in power. When you see the likes of Osborne using his (sudden) editorship to launch daily attacks on the leader of (his) party, and then spend a lot of media air time gloating at TM's less than stellar campaign and subsequent humbling, you realise there are very few politicians who are in it for the greater good, it is all about them and their power trips.

olliegarchy99 · 13/06/2017 05:39

JC promised the 'moon on a stick' - how easily swayed the young are
www.change.org/p/uk-electoral-commission-labour-general-election-fraud-2017

noblegiraffe · 13/06/2017 07:17

I'm impressed if Corbyn managed to get the usually non-voting students to not only vote but criss-cross the country voting again. Hmm

Shouldn't the Sun accept its team lost, stop moaning about the result and talking down the country etc etc?

BigYellowJumper · 13/06/2017 07:25

Jeremy Corbyn seems like the kind of bloke you could go to the pub and have a chat with. Like someone's cool dad.

That is something rare in politicians these days. Most of them don't seem like they come from the same planet as us - it's all PR bullshit and trying to score points. I don't think that that is very interesting for most young people - they have a bit more hope than us old people, and don't just accept what's given to them. I think a lot of older people just roll their eyes and go 'typical' but they're not really passionate about change because life starts to grind you down a bit. I think you have to fight really hard to not just give in and accept the status quo.

Having said that, lots of older people voted Corbyn too, obviously.

BigYellowJumper · 13/06/2017 07:29

user1495484765 you said that JC has terrorist links. Whether that is true or not (I've never seen any evidence), the Tories are currently trying to do a deal with the DUP who aren't just rumoured to have terrorist links.

It is ridiculous to bring up any links JC has to terrorists while ignoring the links TM now has to them.

user1471545174 · 13/06/2017 07:43

Both Sinn Fein and the DUP have "terror links" from the recent conflict, don't waste any more posts discussing this. They only have support now because they have renounced violence (the more moderate SDLP and UU have vanished for the same reason).

Hopefully everyone is wedded to the GFA. I think TM has made a huge mistake and with this alliance and Brexit she has lost the Tory centre. This leaves the road clear for a JC win ( he is nothing if not persistent) in a future election.

Personally, having abandoned politics for now like my fellow User above, I would enjoy seeing JC trying to manage the SNP and LDs through Brexit all the while providing the moon on a stick to an ever growing global population while maintaining free public services even though he's driven all the businesses away from GB with his corporation tax rise. I think it would be bloody hilarious, bring it on.

Petronius16 · 13/06/2017 07:50

Ollie that change petition doesn't make sense. If a student can vote twice (apparently) how did he manage to vote three times?

thewrinklefairy · 13/06/2017 08:14

Oh the irony of accusing young Labour voters of being enticed by a bribe .... I suspect (as indicated by some posts here) that many Conservative voters were either voting for their own perceived personal gain, because they think the Daily Fail is actually fact or they simply have no compassion.
'If you are more fortunate than others, it is better to build a longer table than a taller fence'.

Petronius16 · 13/06/2017 08:55

Anyone who thinks politicians don't deal with terrorists is politically naive. Google King David Hotel Jerusalem to see how the founders of Israel were trying to get rid of us. Thatcher dealt with the IRA, not openly of course. Many examples, I won't bore you, though even the Queen met an ex-IRA commander.

I'm sure somewhere that figures are emerging suggesting it wasn't the student young that were so influential but what has been described as the 'squeezed middle'.

  1. Labour offered jam tomorrow and said how they would pay for it.
  1. The Tories offered not quite as much jam tomorrow. And said nothing about how to pay for it.

Some believed 1, some believed 2.

I think it wasn't one idea, or bribe, that did it but following on from user149 voters had just had enough of 30/40 years of the same old politics. Corbyn was different.

nannybeach · 13/06/2017 09:04

That means then that 50% of 35-44 year olds DID NOT vote labour!

makeourfuture · 13/06/2017 09:13

The mistake the Tories made, among many, was negativity.

If they would just come up with one single idea. Anything.

You don't grow an economy by punishing the poor, sick, elderly and disabled. It doesn't work that way.