To think it's a bit pathetic to start a petition against the Tory/DUP coalition and the losing team should just accept it?

[Ravenblack]

So now there's a petition against the Tory/DUP coalition!

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/election-results-dup-conservative-theresa-may-petition-deal-northern-ireland-a7783021.html

Why can people (generally left wing) not accept democratic decisions in this country? Labour LOST. Do people not get that? May might need to go into Coalition with the DUP to form a Government as she was 8 seats short of a majority, but she still got over FIFTY SEATS more than Corbyn. And Sturgeon slagging off Theresa May can pipe down too. SNP lost over 20 SEATS, (that went mostly to Conservative!!!) So she has no right to be up on the moral high ground!

Moreover, the whingeing left-wingers would not be moaning and griping if Labour had gone into a coalition with the DUP. It's a case of May can do no right in the eyes of some.

It was the same with the EU referendum. We're not happy with the democratic result of the people, so we will start a petition! And then it turned out 10's of 1000's of signatures were fake!

Why can people not just accept the result? Let's face it, if Corbyn had won, the people who aren't so keen on him would have sucked it up!

And also, let's not kid ourselves; Corbyn got many of his votes by promising the world on a plate, you name it, he was going to deliver it. Free this, free that, benefits for everyone, free uni fees, free school meals, bedroom tax gone, ESA assessments gone, benefit cap gone. Baby unicorns, and a million pounds for everyone!

No WAY would he have been able to deliver what he was promising, and many people know that.

Then after 5 years of undoing EVERYTHING the Conservatives have done, the economy would be screwed, Conservatives would have got back in, and they would have had to spend five years sorting it out. Leaving us in a worse position than we are in now. Do people not get that? Are they so blindsided by this ruggedly handsome urban hero promising the world, that they can't see what a monumental fuck up he would have made of the economy?

I think the young were entranced by him, as he became an urban hero, and was engaging and charming and likeable, whilst May was awkward and stiff. Anyone who said anything against Corbyn, and showed support for May was lambasted.

This ludicrous petition is not going to change anything. Conservatives won. They are going to go into a coalition with the DUP. May is not going to resign. Deal with it.

He's decided what he believes and won't listen to anything else. If that's a principled outlook then why moan about others doing it?

As I said, I disagree with your first sentence. I don't believe that Nick Cohen won't listen to anything which doesn't fit his beliefs. (A lot of negatives. To clarify, I believe NC is able to hear things which don't fit his beliefs)

And just for full disclosure, I have disagreed with Nick Cohen's writing many, many times. But that doesn't stop me respecting him.

Given Labour also planned a DUP coalition yes it's a bit much but I support the right of people to start petitions and have different views. So let them petition.

www.irishnews.com/news/2015/09/02/news/hillary-clinton-emails-labour-sought-dup-election-pact-248668/

I don't disrespect nick cohen either but he has a massive blindspot with regards to the left which makes his missives on them highly doubtable, even today his article on Corbyn is full of but but but. Trying to argue him as principled man of the left is a non floater. He's neither left nor able to pull away from his view on them.

I am not a leftie btw, so this isn't a case of me disagreeing. I'm someone able to take a journos word with a giant pinch of salt.

Are you saying that in the past, at the time you are talking about, the DUP would have refused to work with atheists? Genunine question.

It's quite possible.

In 1983, three DUP MPs were elected:
Rev Ian Paisley, Rev William McCrea and Peter Robinson.

I doubt Rev Ian Paisley or Rev William McCrea would have worked with an atheist.

Even in 2013, Rev William McCrea, the DUP MP for South Antrim at the time, criticised the first Northern Ireland meeting of an atheist 'church'.
www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/dup-mp-criticises-first-northern-ireland-meeting-of-atheist-church-29800896.html

Nick Cohen has done his utmost to smear Corbyn and claim he is nasty and unelectable. If you actually go into all his claims and sources you will find they are either not backed up by evidence or present an extremely skewed take on things.

Nope, in fact if you dig you find many more things than are commonly mentioned, as well as all of those claims being born out by the evidence.

I think the Corbynite camp must by necessity have a lot of people in it who just won't check or understand, or don't want to believe it. It's all there.

Ghandi Peace Prize

He actually got the "Ghandi Peace Award", which is another thing. The Ghandi Peace Prize, that accolade of international renown as awarded to Nelson Mandela, that the whole planet respects, is not something Jeremy Corbyn has been awarded at all.

A small thing I know, but the implication you are (unwittingly?) helping to spread is thoroughly dishonest, exploiting the confusion between the two bordering on mail-order-phd-fraudulent.

I am not now, never have been, and never will be a conservitive supporter. However if the Tories had won outright then I would have accepted that (as I have done in previous elections) - not happy but accepted the majority voted for them.

If the Tories had gone into a coalition with another party who were not anti gay, anti women's rights, etc then again I would have accepted that (just as I did the conservitive/Lib Dem coalition a few years back).

The DUP have some pretty backwards views of the world. It's like Trump in the US. Most people outside that little bubble have been looking on in horror at his policies, behaviour towards women and his actions in general. If the DUP have any sway in government then I suspect the rest of the world will be looking at us through those same eyes of disbelief.

Honestly though, petitions are great. A nice peaceful way for people to get their point across and their concerns discussed in parliament. It's far better than the alternatives people in other countries face.

A DUP councillor celebrated his party's role as kingmakers at Westminster by posting a photo of a terrorist UVF flag flying from Downing Street:

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2017/dup-man-celebrated-election-with-photo-of-terror-group-flag-in-downing-street-35814566.html

Ah good, CrossWordSalad, you're back.

Could you answer my questions above? You joined this thread talking about the Labour party in relation to the DUP. OK.

Putting that aside for the moment, I'd really like to hear:

a) what you actually think of the DUP?

b) what you think of a situation where the governing party at Westminster does not have a majority but is in a deal of confidence and supply with the DUP, who thus hold the casting vote?

Anyone watch The Handmaid's Tale last night...

ThanksForAllTheFish: "If the DUP have any sway in government then I suspect the rest of the world will be looking at us through those same eyes of disbelief."

I don't think they will, though. There isn't a chance in hell that the DUP will be able to persuade Theresa May to hold a vote on, for example, rescinding gay marriage, because it simply won't wash with Tory backbenchers. They are much more likely to ask straightforwardly for money for NI and then to support her on key policy votes - which they probably would anyway.

The real worry about a deal with the DUP is that it threatens the fragile peace in NI, undermining the UK government's role as "honest broker".

It's interesting that despite the Tory's election campaign being a disaster, there are still posters on here continuing with the same tactics: name-calling;presenting headlines as research;smearing.
People who are genuinely interested in politics; who understand the history of NI and who have seen first hand the problems inherent in sectarian politics (also an issue in Scotland where there are regular Orange walks, etc) don't need to rush off to Google headlines. You see even before May's announcement we knew who the DUP were. We knew about the GFA and the cash for ash scandal. We knew about the power sharing agreement.
You're woefully ill-equipped to enter into these discussions because you only care about Ireland as an argument winner. Your disrespect for its history and its people is blatantly obvious and tbh it renders your opinions easy to dismiss.
Ranting on MN seems to be part of a certain party's social media policy but it doesn't affect the vote so it may be time to reconsider that strategy too. Angry, ill-informed smearing doesn't win people to your cause. It's time to catch up and, some free advice, trying to 'read up' on Ireland in a weekend, won't cut it.

Given Labour also planned a DUP coalition yes it's a bit much but I support the right of people to start petitions and have different views.

They didn't.

I don't think they will, though

Of course they will.

The while point of the coalition is that they cant pass any laws on their own as a minority government, hence the DUP coalition. Can you really see the DUP sitting there sweetly and just being 'yes men (and women)' like the Lib Dems were? They'll hold May by the (metaphorical) balls and they know it.

I read somewhere the DUP want Nigel Farage involved in government.

I hope this is a fiction.

I agree that the DUP will have zero success trying to influence social/medical policy in mainland UK. By far the most worrying aspect is in regard to the Good Friday Agreement.

The while point of the coalition is that they cant pass any laws on their own as a minority government, hence the DUP coalition. Can you really see the DUP sitting there sweetly and just being 'yes men (and women)' like the Lib Dems were? They'll hold May by the (metaphorical) balls and they know it.

Not to forget the hat in 2010 the Tories and Libs weren't too ideologically opposed. Unlike today's Tories, who have no one really but the dup on a similar ideological footing.

Hi Perking I wasn't ignoring your questions yesterday, I just wanted to collect my thoughts before answering.

These are my thoughts. I do not pretend to be an expert on NI, or to have a full understanding of its history or politics. However, I don't think this disqualifies me from having an opinion on matters seriously affecting my country. I know the NI peace process if important, but so is the future of the rest of the UK.

I am answering your question in the spirit in which I think you asked it, as a genuine request for my views. If anything I say is factually incorrect, I welcome being corrected. If people disagree, can I ask that you reply to me in the same spirit.

a) what you actually think of the DUP?

I don't agree with many of their views on issues such as equality for gay people. I am aware that they have had connections with paramilitary organisations and terrorists. However, so do many NI politicians. My understanding was that the point of the GFA etc was to work out a way in which people who had previously fought each other could work politically together. If people such as Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley (sr) were able to put the past behind them to work together for the good of their country, I think we should follow their example.

My main view of the DUP is that, as far as I am aware, they are democrats. They believe in the parliamentary process. For me, part of democracy is accepting that people with different, and sometimes more regressive, views deserve representation and their share of political power. As long as this is within the context of democracy, I'm happy with that.

b) what you think of a situation where the governing party at Westminster does not have a majority but is in a deal of confidence and supply with the DUP, who thus hold the casting vote?

I take a pragmatic view on this. I think an understanding of which powers are devolved to NI is useful, and of which laws are different in NI and why. For example, abortion law is different:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35980195

and gay marriage is not legal:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-33131093/why-is-gay-marriage-still-not-recognised-in-northern-ireland

There seem to be some people suggesting that a deal with the DUP means that the gay marriage and abortion laws in the rest of the UK are under thread. I think this just not realistic, it doesn't make sense because of devolved powers, and even if that was not the case, the DUP would be completely unrealistic to bring something like this up.

From what I have read, the issues the DUP will seek to influence are more likely to be around finances for NI, and presumably the details of Brexit.

So the issue of them having a casting vote depends on what the issues are being voted on. Any deal will only hold as long as both sides are happy with it. The Conservatives are not committing themselves to a blank sheet of legislation. They can withdraw from the deal at any time, and the DUP will know that and will presumably have realistic, limited areas in which they hope to see, from their point of view, progress. Presumably this is what is currently being discussed.

I am not saying this applies to everyone, but I do think some of the outrage is manufactured. What has happened in the past (eg attempted Labour deals with the DUP) is not irrelevant and I think people dismissing these facts as attempted slurs (not saying you are Perking, just a general point) are trying to make a complicated situation simple, which I don't find either convincing or helpful.

I need to go and do some work, so if I don't reply it is because I am busy, but I will be back later.

Not to forget the hat in 2010 the Tories and Libs weren't too ideologically opposed. Unlike today's Tories, who have no one really but the dup on a similar ideological footing.

Precisely. Hard to tell which one is more right wing. They make ukip look centre left.

For anyone who wants to bother looking at what was actually said. Here's a bit of light reading.

www.opendemocracy.net/luke-davies/re-examining-corbyns-dangerous-friendships

Personally. I don't think you can solve a problem like ISIS by sitting and talking over a cuppa and biscuits. I equally don't think you can claim the moral high ground when you talk and meet with Saudis who sell arms to ISIS.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/04/jeremy-corbyn-criticises-theresa-may-suppressing-report-believed/

Given the Queens speech has now been postponed for an unknown number of days, I suspect the talks with the DUP aren't going quickly. That suggests complexity.

There's a bit of a warning coming from Ireland too:

www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/varadkars-warning-to-theresa-may-dont-get-too-close-to-dup-35816509.html

Good Friday Agreements shouldn't be a toilet paper to wipe Tories' arses in it. Has been known to have bad consequences.

I suspect the talks with the DUP aren't going quickly. That suggests complexity

I suspect the DUP are pushing hard for a ban on smiling on Sundays and making laughing at Kenny Everitt punishable by public stoning.

Gerry Adams has just been on the bbc. Any deals with the dup are heading into dangerous territory as far as the peace agreement is concerned.