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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think that most people on Mumsnet would like to live like this?

384 replies

Uktopia · 08/06/2017 08:36

I live in a European country and have done for twenty years.

After one to three years' maternity leave (paid by the state, not the employer), which can be taken by either parent, nursery care is free from the age of one until the start of school.

University is free and all who graduate high school are admitted. Child benefit (non-means-tested) is paid until the child is 27 as long as they are in education.

I can always see the GP the same day. I can self refer to 8 different specialists per year and often get an appointment within a week or two and sometimes the same or next day (for more than 8, the GP can refer). Dentists (and for children, orthodontists) are included. If you have a chronic health condition, you can be prescribed a spa stay of three weeks to a specialised centre to help you manage your condition. Medical-grade breast pumps are prescribed to new mothers. There is no concept of a waiting list for operations or treatment. Sick pay is paid by the health system, as is carer's leave when your kids are sick. Disability benefits are permanent where the disability is unlikely to improve; no revaluation needed. IVF is free for four cycles per child and you can have as many children as you would have wanted had you not had fertility problems (guess what, most people stop at two).

Social housing is plentiful and no private landlords are involved in the system at all. For families with children with average incomes, the waiting lists are short. In the private property market, there is rent control and a lot of protection for tenants, so people can feel that a rented house is a home. Property speculation is disincentivised so house prices are fair. The state offers interest free loans to improve the basic amenities of your home, such as heating.

Unemployment insurance pays 80% of your last wage (to a cap of approx. 2.5% of the average income). For the first 7 months you are not obliged to take a job that pays less than your previous one or that is not in your field; after that you have to jump through a few hoops but nothing like the jobcentre. If you lose your eligibility for unemployment and have no income, you get emergency money of approx. £700 per month for as long as it takes. Despite it being very easy to stay on benefits, unemployment is low and recent years have seen periods of full employment.

Every four years, if your employer agrees, you can take a one year educational sabbatical anywhere in the world and the state pays 80% of your salary. I got my Oxford graduate degree for free. My job was protected until I went back.

Public transport is faster than driving as services are so frequent. A full annual all zones pass in the capital city costs less than £1 a day. An annual pass covering all public transport in the whole country, unlimited, is approx. £950. The rail system is state owned and tickets are based on a per kilometre price, rather than being pushed up by market forces.

Crime is low. Kids walk to school alone from a young age and women walk home alone at night at 3am.

When I earned exactly the average income (then £12,000 p.a.) I paid almost zero tax. Now I earn a lot more, so pay a lot of tax, but from my net income I can still comfortably save 50% as the cost of living is low even in the capital. The economy is fairly buoyant in general and most people would count as prosperous in the UK.

There's no nanny state or increased governmental control (in fact, the UK exerts much more control over its citizens). There's just a general lack of anxiety about the trials of life such as unemployment or disability.

It's no utopia, and the people are so used to some of these provisions that they take them totally for granted.

The UK could have this, and to be honest, I think we'd do it better and appreciate it more. Hearing people ridicule magical money trees while living in a real system like this is heartbreaking.

Voting Conservative today will take us further from a country like this than ever before.

OP posts:
user1477249785 · 09/06/2017 05:45

Feels pretty outrageous that on election day, a post like this was allowed to stand by a poster who had never posted before and who didn't engage with subsequent debate.

BabyHamster · 09/06/2017 05:51

Austria is extremely conservative (small c) and traditional, I think it would be quite a culture shock for a lot of people from the UK.

Free tuition fees in other countries often gets mentioned on here, but in many of these countries a huge proportion of students go to their local uni and live at home, stay friends with their schoolmates etc. It's like an extension of college. Not really comparable to the UK at all.

BabyHamster · 09/06/2017 05:55

Barbara I agree the Danes seem to be doing something right, but I'm not sure i agree about the 'work to live' culture. Isn't it the norm to put your kids in childcare from a very young age and for both parents to work full time? SAHPs are very rare. I think a lot of people in the UK would not be happy with that situation, personally I'm very glad of the opportunities we have to work part time here.

Igneococcus · 09/06/2017 05:58

Most expensive in Europe for house selling and buying so you are stuck in the first house you can buy.

I assume Austria is a bit like Germany in that respect but people in general don't really expect to move several times in their working lives, not unless you need to move for a new job or if a relationship breaks down. The majority of people I know live in houses they have bought, or more commonly build, when they were able to afford it and have no plans to move into a different house. My db and his family have lived in their self-build house now for almost 30 years and have no plans of moving. The idea of a property ladder that you keep climbing up doesn't really exist in Germany and Austria sounds like that as well.

Igneococcus · 09/06/2017 06:00

Oh, I know Suhl heteronormative, it used to be (or may still be, i don't know) twinned with my hometown before the reunification.

Oliversmumsarmy · 09/06/2017 06:16

So if you can't afford a big house, with a swimming pool in the first place then you can never have them.

I suppose social mobility or just having a choice is not there

Expat38matt · 09/06/2017 06:24

It does sound wonderful and I'd be interested to know how it is achieved and why other governments can't / won't / don't follow suit ?
Also - was child benefit until the child is 27 a typo ?!!!

Igneococcus · 09/06/2017 06:32

You can of course move to a bigger house with a swimming pool if that is what you wish to do olivesmumsarmy you are not forced to stay in the same house all your life. It's just not something what many people want or need to do. Also, housing overall is pretty decent, at least at the moment, there is now more pressure on housing costs and availability.
I'm really not sure that moving houses a lot is an indicator of social mobility.

Oliversmumsarmy · 09/06/2017 06:49

I don't think I am alone in if I hadn't moved house and lot I would be stuck in some council house in a grotty northern town rather than where I live now.

Personally I would go insane looking at the same 4 walls and same view for the rest of my life knowing that if I moved the government would tax me hugely just for wanting a change of scene.

I would also not have a business.

The kicker is I am half Austrian.

KC225 · 09/06/2017 06:59

I live in Sweden. It is NOT the part of Sweden I live in

ssd · 09/06/2017 08:36

maybe the op just had a dream and wrote it down here?

kind of like when Pam found Bobby in the shower in Dallas

for the old gimmers here

ssd · 09/06/2017 08:37

anyway, I know its Denmark Grin

Londonlovely · 09/06/2017 08:40

Troll or no troll, last night's results suggest quite a few Brits would like to live in a fairer society. Thanks well done fellow humanitarians.

HookandSwan · 09/06/2017 08:52

I think you live in cloud cuckoo land love!!

GerdaLovesLili · 09/06/2017 09:09

If it is Denmark, the system works because of the very, very different demographics, and population size.

The Danes have a greater trust of their politicians (not difficult, I know) and an entirely different voting system. (One that I think we should adopt) [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11691427/Would-Britain-be-better-off-with-Denmarks-voting-system.html]

If I could just get the hang of the language I'd move there in a heartbeat. I'd love to be part of a population that is so proud of its flag and history that the flag is flown from flagpoles in many gardens; where teens are encouraged to go to summer school to learn more about their culture rather than told that it's shameful and culturally oppressive; and with a tiny population of less than 6 MiIllion so it's hard to get lost in the crowd. The administrative system of paperwork for every bloody tiny thing would probably drive me bonkers, but it seems like a small price to pay.

x2boys · 09/06/2017 09:11

did op ever come back ?pointless thread if not.

JumpingJellybeanz · 09/06/2017 09:25

I live in Sweden. There are some similarities between what the OP lists and the Swedish system but they are not the same.

Oliversmumsarmy · 09/06/2017 10:46

I cant get over being in education till aged 27. Then as soon as you get married you get a house then have children and the state looks after them till they are 27 and the whole system starts again.
Velvet handcuffs springs to mind.
I might be a little strange but it does sound creepy .

Igneococcus · 09/06/2017 10:57

I was still in education technically at 27, although I was PhD student at the time and research grant funded.
You start school later in Germany (and many other European contries, I was 6.5 when I started school), it takes 13 years to do a high school qualification that allows University access (has changed to 12 but there are plans to change it back), I was 19.5 when I finished hs, until a few years ago men had to do national service as well (was 2 years when my brothers were of the age to do it but got more and more reduced before it got completely scrapped), and until a few years ago all degrees were at least 4 year degrees, bachelor degrees are fairly new, and you could always take it slowly, there were ways of dragging out a degree course. Easy to get to 27 and still be in education.

Natsku · 09/06/2017 13:38

Free tuition fees in other countries often gets mentioned on here, but in many of these countries a huge proportion of students go to their local uni and live at home, stay friends with their schoolmates etc. It's like an extension of college. Not really comparable to the UK at all.

Not sure about the other countries but that's not the case in Finland at least. People tend to move out after high school, even if they're not starting uni yet, its not uncommon either for teenagers to move out at 16 to go to high school in a different area rather than their local high school (to go to specialist high schools like my ex's niece moved to go to an arts high school).

In regards to housing, I think in countries with higher costs for buying and selling, people tend to rent for longer while they save for a deposit on the house they want to settle in rather than buy, sell, buy, sell. The concept for a 'starter home' doesn't really exist over here for instance. Its also very common to own two homes, the proper home and the summer cottage.

JumpingJellybeanz · 09/06/2017 14:50

It's the same in Sweden Natsku. Many of my DD's friends moved into 'student' accommodation at 16 so they could go to a school out of their area.

My DD is 24 and starts her final year of university in August. She lives in a housing association/council student flat.

VenusOfWillendorf · 09/06/2017 15:15

If most people are in education until they are 27, what is the pension age? How on earth are pensions adequately funded?!

Natsku · 09/06/2017 15:31

Pension age is 65 here in Finland, for the National pension anyway, job-based pension age varies (there's an actual retirement age and a target retirement age and if you work until the latter then you get a bigger pension), and you accrue pension at a rate of 1.5% of gross earnings.

Igneococcus · 09/06/2017 15:40

Most people aren't in education until 27. If you don't go to university or to Gymnasium (for uni entry qualification) you can leave school at 15 or 16, do a 2-3 year apprenticeship, and be paying income tax by the time you are 20. Two of my siblings did that although both did further education besides working full time, in the evening and weekends.