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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think that most people on Mumsnet would like to live like this?

384 replies

Uktopia · 08/06/2017 08:36

I live in a European country and have done for twenty years.

After one to three years' maternity leave (paid by the state, not the employer), which can be taken by either parent, nursery care is free from the age of one until the start of school.

University is free and all who graduate high school are admitted. Child benefit (non-means-tested) is paid until the child is 27 as long as they are in education.

I can always see the GP the same day. I can self refer to 8 different specialists per year and often get an appointment within a week or two and sometimes the same or next day (for more than 8, the GP can refer). Dentists (and for children, orthodontists) are included. If you have a chronic health condition, you can be prescribed a spa stay of three weeks to a specialised centre to help you manage your condition. Medical-grade breast pumps are prescribed to new mothers. There is no concept of a waiting list for operations or treatment. Sick pay is paid by the health system, as is carer's leave when your kids are sick. Disability benefits are permanent where the disability is unlikely to improve; no revaluation needed. IVF is free for four cycles per child and you can have as many children as you would have wanted had you not had fertility problems (guess what, most people stop at two).

Social housing is plentiful and no private landlords are involved in the system at all. For families with children with average incomes, the waiting lists are short. In the private property market, there is rent control and a lot of protection for tenants, so people can feel that a rented house is a home. Property speculation is disincentivised so house prices are fair. The state offers interest free loans to improve the basic amenities of your home, such as heating.

Unemployment insurance pays 80% of your last wage (to a cap of approx. 2.5% of the average income). For the first 7 months you are not obliged to take a job that pays less than your previous one or that is not in your field; after that you have to jump through a few hoops but nothing like the jobcentre. If you lose your eligibility for unemployment and have no income, you get emergency money of approx. £700 per month for as long as it takes. Despite it being very easy to stay on benefits, unemployment is low and recent years have seen periods of full employment.

Every four years, if your employer agrees, you can take a one year educational sabbatical anywhere in the world and the state pays 80% of your salary. I got my Oxford graduate degree for free. My job was protected until I went back.

Public transport is faster than driving as services are so frequent. A full annual all zones pass in the capital city costs less than £1 a day. An annual pass covering all public transport in the whole country, unlimited, is approx. £950. The rail system is state owned and tickets are based on a per kilometre price, rather than being pushed up by market forces.

Crime is low. Kids walk to school alone from a young age and women walk home alone at night at 3am.

When I earned exactly the average income (then £12,000 p.a.) I paid almost zero tax. Now I earn a lot more, so pay a lot of tax, but from my net income I can still comfortably save 50% as the cost of living is low even in the capital. The economy is fairly buoyant in general and most people would count as prosperous in the UK.

There's no nanny state or increased governmental control (in fact, the UK exerts much more control over its citizens). There's just a general lack of anxiety about the trials of life such as unemployment or disability.

It's no utopia, and the people are so used to some of these provisions that they take them totally for granted.

The UK could have this, and to be honest, I think we'd do it better and appreciate it more. Hearing people ridicule magical money trees while living in a real system like this is heartbreaking.

Voting Conservative today will take us further from a country like this than ever before.

OP posts:
Natsku · 08/06/2017 18:58

Well op the only thing l want to know is HOW DOES ALL THAT GET PAID FOR?

WITH TAXES

Slimthistime · 08/06/2017 19:03

if I had been in education from 18 to 27 I would have liked to study literature, creative writing, drama and art history.

what use would that have been to anyone else? I'm sure I'd have enjoyed it but I can't see how it would be good for anyone to pay for that via taxes.

Pigface1 · 08/06/2017 19:12

Nowehre's perfect. But if it's Germany, the bloody flipping amazing thing about Germany is that they have a larger population than us but they run a MASSIVE budget surplus. Absolutely huge. Somewhere around 20 billion euro.

I think that's because they don't have an NHS. You contribute 7% of your pre-tax salary into a compulsory health insurance plan. Healthcare is still free at point of service.

In return, they get a healthcare system so fast that waiting list data isn't even collected.

Women's healthcare is a priority, with yearly smears and yearly gynaecological ultrasounds. There's massive, massive emphasis on prevention rather than cure.

The proof of the pudding's in the eating - they have superb health outcomes.

I think the NHS screws us from both directions - it costs us loads and we have comparatively crap health outcomes (see rate of stillbirth for example - highest in developed world). Britain does deserve better but the electorate's its own worst enemy on this subject. We're so convinced that the only alternative is the American system we viciously defend our third world healthcare (see threads about post-natal wards if you need convincing) just because it's free.

TabascoToastie · 08/06/2017 19:13

Actually every pound invested in arts funding MAKES £4 back. Arts funding is one of the soundest financial investments the government can make; it's pure anti-elitist, anti-intellectual propaganda that causes people to make judgements against anything perceived as "arty" even when those judgements go against the facts.

Besides the whole attitude of "everything is worthless unless it makes money" is the root of many of the evils in society. Fundamentally life is not and should not be about generating profit. Socialist countries thrive and out perform us in almost every way. Where do you draw the line? Are humans only of worth if they bring in money? Should we get rid of all parks, libraries, etc. because they don't have financial value?

Maybe that's the world you want to live in but to me it screams 1984. And actually sounds more communist than capitalist (of course extreme communism has a lot more in common with extreme capitalsm than centric policies and liberal socialism).

TabascoToastie · 08/06/2017 19:13

Oh and many of the highest tax payers in the country are people working in the performing arts.

explodingkittens · 08/06/2017 19:14

if I had been in education from 18 to 27 I would have liked to study literature, creative writing, drama and art history. what use would that have been to anyone else?

Yeah. Nothing good or useful ever came out of people reading or writing books, did it? What's art ever done for us? Pointless bullshit for posh twats, innit?

Fuck's sake. This FUCKING COUNTRY.

explodingkittens · 08/06/2017 19:19

Read Tabasco's post for my point but better-expressed and with less swearing Grin

Amanduh · 08/06/2017 19:20

Fairyland sounds nice.

allegretto · 08/06/2017 19:21

Tabasco- hear! Hear!

Natsku · 08/06/2017 19:23

Read Tabasco's post for my point but better-expressed and with less swearing

Tabasco's post was more verbose and less sweary but yours drove right to the heart of the matter in a clear concise way Grin

Slimthistime · 08/06/2017 19:56

this is interesting
I'm the one who said I'd have studied arts subjects till 27 if I could!

I'm not saying nothing of value comes out of them - that's an interesting assumption to make, thinking I thought that.

I'm saying, I'd have enjoyed that but I don't expect others to subsidise it.

I am an ordinary person on less than an average wage, no I don't think arts is only for posh twats or whatever someone said. I'm honestly wondering why someone would want to sub it for me to do it. I would not have become Juliet Stevenson or Lucy Kirkwood. I just would have enjoyed it. I think it's lovely if the Duke of Westminster wants to help fund that, but not people on my wage.

As I said upthread - my big fear is that Corbyn will increase the tax load on the average and lower earners. I don't think I'm the only person who really wanted to vote for him but won't because there's not enough clarity from the Labour Party on who will shoulder the burden.

we're back to squabbling over the smallest piece of the pie while enormous accumulated wealth is not tackled.

Slimthistime · 08/06/2017 19:57

Tabasco "Fundamentally life is not and should not be about generating profit"

This is a comment I only ever hear from people who are quite well off. Because the less well off amongst us want reassurance that the basics will be paid for.

explodingkittens · 08/06/2017 20:06

But why should someone not 'sub you' to study the arts? Why is that not a worthwhile thing for a society to do?

PrincessFiorimonde · 08/06/2017 20:06

Fascinating thread.

Notanother1 · 08/06/2017 20:06

Yes please!

Slimthistime · 08/06/2017 20:10

exploding - I suppose because I believe lower earners should be able to pay lower tax or no tax. Like I said, if you told me only the super rich were going to be taxed for that, fine. I can live with that.

but if I was going to be a doctor, I can understand what direct benefit society would receive. If I am pretty much as I am now - someone who can waffle on endlessly about scripts and remember tiny details in books I read 20 years ago - I might provide some lovely conversation but what else I am doing?

I don't think it's fair for average Jane office worker, i.e. me, to fund that. And there's about a squillion free courses for this anyway.

going back to the start, I don't think any uni courses should be funded. Again, if the tax take only came from higher earners, but we're never going to get there are we?

user1471545174 · 08/06/2017 20:16

V true above about the NHS.

explodingkittens · 08/06/2017 20:34

I think that's a terribly sad way to look at life, slim. Without funding and valuing arts and culture, we don't have a society worth living in.

Do you not think that your ability to provide 'lovely conversation' is important?

Slimthistime · 08/06/2017 20:52

Exploding, you're twisting my words. I DO value arts and culture!

Some people enjoy my book blather. But that doesn't seem a reason to fund a literature degree for me.

ssd · 08/06/2017 23:15

bloody hell did the op never come back then?

why post all that then never return Confused

Kittykatmacbill · 08/06/2017 23:31

Bet it's Austria - my SIL lives there moans all the time pariticulary about there 200 euro per month childcare bill and the fact they had to refurb their bathroom of their mortgage free house...

HeteronormativeHaybales · 08/06/2017 23:37

Ooh Igneo, I was v close to there - south of Suhl, north of Coburg :)

Oliversmumsarmy · 09/06/2017 01:51

If this is Austria
Where is the incentive to actually get anywhere.

Most expensive in Europe for house selling and buying so you are stuck in the first house you can buy.

Taxed to the hilt if you earn even a modest salary.

Definitely wouldn't want to live there

BarbaraofSeville · 09/06/2017 05:22

Isn't the rental market a lot better in Austria? If you can rent somewhere that's suitable, affordable, you can decorate it however you like, stay there as long as you want/need to, but can also move if necessary, the need to buy somewhere is greatly diminished?

What you earn and what taxes are, are less important than affordability and quality of life IMHO.

What's the point of earning a lot and paying low taxes if your high salary doesn't even buy a basic/decent standard of living?

People on salaries that are well above the UK average pay so much out in rent and childcare that they feel like paupers if they are living in London, whereas the same salary may go much further in Vienna, so that people will feel quite well off, because they have so much more left to pay for food, entertainment, holidays, eating out etc.

Someone upthread mentions that an annual season ticket that covers all rail travel in Austria is 'over £1500' which may sound like a lot, but how much is the UK equivalent? People who live in the Home Counties and commute to London report paying £3/4/5k for a season ticket, that probably only covers their commuter route, and you can actually get a season ticket to commute from Leeds to London that costs about £13k!

BarbaraofSeville · 09/06/2017 05:36

I suppose it boils down to 'what is different about the UK compared to Austria, if the OP is talking about Austria, and also the Scandinavian and Nordic countries' where high taxes are accepted for the greater good and good public services?

It is often reported that the Danish are the happiest people in the world, yet they have crap weather, high taxes, expensive alcohol, but it's very family friendly and more of a 'work to live' rather than a 'live to work' culture. People work shorter hours, and there's no long hours/presenteeism culture. If you work longer, it's seen as bad because you aren't managing your time properly.

Whereas in the UK, most of the 'big jobs' that earn a lot require employees to put in long hours and travel a lot, so they have little life outside work and a lot of high earners say things like 'if Labour get in, I'll leave the country if they try to tax me more'. Why don't all the rich Danes or Austrians leave the country? Why does it work there, but wouldn't here?

Oliversmummy says 'where is the incentive to get anywhere' but it sounds like that most people in Austria are already 'there' so what's the point of (presumably) working harder/longer to earn more money when you already have a good quality of life on what you earn, even if it doesn't look like a lot?