Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think that most people on Mumsnet would like to live like this?

384 replies

Uktopia · 08/06/2017 08:36

I live in a European country and have done for twenty years.

After one to three years' maternity leave (paid by the state, not the employer), which can be taken by either parent, nursery care is free from the age of one until the start of school.

University is free and all who graduate high school are admitted. Child benefit (non-means-tested) is paid until the child is 27 as long as they are in education.

I can always see the GP the same day. I can self refer to 8 different specialists per year and often get an appointment within a week or two and sometimes the same or next day (for more than 8, the GP can refer). Dentists (and for children, orthodontists) are included. If you have a chronic health condition, you can be prescribed a spa stay of three weeks to a specialised centre to help you manage your condition. Medical-grade breast pumps are prescribed to new mothers. There is no concept of a waiting list for operations or treatment. Sick pay is paid by the health system, as is carer's leave when your kids are sick. Disability benefits are permanent where the disability is unlikely to improve; no revaluation needed. IVF is free for four cycles per child and you can have as many children as you would have wanted had you not had fertility problems (guess what, most people stop at two).

Social housing is plentiful and no private landlords are involved in the system at all. For families with children with average incomes, the waiting lists are short. In the private property market, there is rent control and a lot of protection for tenants, so people can feel that a rented house is a home. Property speculation is disincentivised so house prices are fair. The state offers interest free loans to improve the basic amenities of your home, such as heating.

Unemployment insurance pays 80% of your last wage (to a cap of approx. 2.5% of the average income). For the first 7 months you are not obliged to take a job that pays less than your previous one or that is not in your field; after that you have to jump through a few hoops but nothing like the jobcentre. If you lose your eligibility for unemployment and have no income, you get emergency money of approx. £700 per month for as long as it takes. Despite it being very easy to stay on benefits, unemployment is low and recent years have seen periods of full employment.

Every four years, if your employer agrees, you can take a one year educational sabbatical anywhere in the world and the state pays 80% of your salary. I got my Oxford graduate degree for free. My job was protected until I went back.

Public transport is faster than driving as services are so frequent. A full annual all zones pass in the capital city costs less than £1 a day. An annual pass covering all public transport in the whole country, unlimited, is approx. £950. The rail system is state owned and tickets are based on a per kilometre price, rather than being pushed up by market forces.

Crime is low. Kids walk to school alone from a young age and women walk home alone at night at 3am.

When I earned exactly the average income (then £12,000 p.a.) I paid almost zero tax. Now I earn a lot more, so pay a lot of tax, but from my net income I can still comfortably save 50% as the cost of living is low even in the capital. The economy is fairly buoyant in general and most people would count as prosperous in the UK.

There's no nanny state or increased governmental control (in fact, the UK exerts much more control over its citizens). There's just a general lack of anxiety about the trials of life such as unemployment or disability.

It's no utopia, and the people are so used to some of these provisions that they take them totally for granted.

The UK could have this, and to be honest, I think we'd do it better and appreciate it more. Hearing people ridicule magical money trees while living in a real system like this is heartbreaking.

Voting Conservative today will take us further from a country like this than ever before.

OP posts:
LiviaDrusillaAugusta · 08/06/2017 17:18

Well no I would quite like to be able to spend some of the money I earn rather than working for fuck all to support the rest of the country.

It may be honourable to want to suffer for someone else's benefit but most people don't want to do that.

LiviaDrusillaAugusta · 08/06/2017 17:20

All systems have people who lose out - sorry if I wouldn't choose to be one of those people just to help everyone else have families.

Asmoto · 08/06/2017 17:24

I don't agree with non-means tested child benefit, and certainly not to be paid up to age 27 - by all means have means-tested CB or educational grants, but that is ridiculous.

ravenmum · 08/06/2017 17:24

Maybe the country should be divided into two, one half for people who want to try their luck at proper capitalism and sign up for the workhouse if things don't work out as hoped due to illness, old age, incompetence etc., and the other half where people are willing to share the wealth in return for a safety net if anything goes wrong.

LiviaDrusillaAugusta · 08/06/2017 17:25

And most people don't care a thing for the 'greater good' if it disadvantages them. That kind of socialist utopia relies on everyone being happy to potentially suffer to support other people who aren't actually disadvantaged.

LiviaDrusillaAugusta · 08/06/2017 17:26

If the system relies on high taxation, how will that work? Are people actually claiming that nobody is made poorer by this if they don't have families?

ravenmum · 08/06/2017 17:26

What's the difference between an educational grant and benefits given to young people who are still in education?

LiviaDrusillaAugusta · 08/06/2017 17:27

Raven That's why this country has capitalism and a welfare state - not one extreme.

LiviaDrusillaAugusta · 08/06/2017 17:28

24 or 27 is not 'young' - if a degree takes 3/4 years and they leave school at 18 then why do they need it at that age? Presumably it's possible to claim child benefit while having parental leave? How batshit is that!

LiviaDrusillaAugusta · 08/06/2017 17:29

But I'm odd as I would like to benefit in some way for working and deciding not to have children. Weird, I know Confused

Asmoto · 08/06/2017 17:30

Ravenmum I don't think it would matter as long as the benefits/grants were means-tested rather than being paid universally. Happy to help those who genuinely need it, but not for my taxes to go to people who are already far wealthier than I am.

ravenmum · 08/06/2017 17:31

Are people actually claiming that nobody is made poorer by this if they don't have families?
Of course not; you pay more taxes, you get more services. And you know that the children other people are having will one day be paying for your pension, and treating your illnesses. It's what's known as a society.

ravenmum · 08/06/2017 17:33

if a degree takes 3/4 years and they leave school at 18 then why do they need it at that age?
Somebody has to become a professor or train for a decade to be a doctor, or we'd all be up shit creek, wouldn't we?

Natsku · 08/06/2017 17:34

24 or 27 is not 'young' - if a degree takes 3/4 years and they leave school at 18 then why do they need it at that age?

Not every country has school finishing at 18 or University starting at 18. Don't know about Austria but in Finland people normally don't start uni until at least 20 (high school finishing at 19/20, another year off for those doing national service - think Austria has national service too, potentially several years waiting to get into the uni you want to get into)

Slimthistime · 08/06/2017 17:34

I so see Livia's point

Politicians worldwide have defaulted to "family" when population is a worldwide problem

I have no idea which place the OP is describing - and she still hasn't clarified free healthcare or whether what she describes is paid for - but it paints a lovely picture for people with children without consideration for those who don't have any, can't have any etc.

Also, I don't earn a lot - national average or below I think.

for me there is a baseline of provision of free healthcare, education, sanitation etc but I don't want to fund someone's parental leave for years on end. Why can't they fund me getting some time off to look after my mum?

I don't want to block anyone from having nice things. What worries me about Corbyn is extra tax burdens on those of us earning around the national average (£23k ish) It's also massively skewed by the London problem.

It seems that many think I should pack up and move and leave my support network but if I had a baby I would be told I shouldn't be forced to leave my support network!

It's as if people without children don't exist sometimes. I also have the joys of chronic asthma, anxiety and depression.

Yet the Duke of ....I'm not sure what area actually - owns half of Kensington. There are people who wouldn't miss any extra tax but no one will tax them because they can leave or make alternative arrangements. Actually every party is going to leave the less well off squabbling over the smallest piece of the pie. It was Labour who wanted London to be like a tax haven with all the property prices.

so if I'm faced with a choice of maybe paying a tenner every time I see the GP or paying extra tax, I don't know which is better tbh.

I am not the £80k person upset about Corbyn's extra tax. I'm an average person worried that the scenario described by OP will leave me worse off when I'm not making a lot anyway. Why should any of my tax go to someone who fancies studying till they are 27 or having 5 children? I don't think I'm a horrible meanie for not wanting to pay for that.

Natsku · 08/06/2017 17:35

Why can't they fund me getting some time off to look after my mum?

That's where the sabbatical leave comes in. My mum's friend took a year of sabbatical leave to look after her mum before she moved into a residential home.

Slimthistime · 08/06/2017 17:36

I can see why medical degrees should be exempt but the only party covering this is UKIP!!

also what about people who do the degree and then practice for a couple of years only - they'd have to pay it back

so how about everyone just pays for the degree in a graduate tax after?

ravenmum · 08/06/2017 17:38

It's not like there's some unknown elite forcing this system upon an unwilling public. The system has developed like this in Germany, Austria and elsewhere because the majority have voted over the years for political parties espousing these policies.

I doubt anything like this will be introduced in the UK just yet (if ever), because the majority would not vote that way. The culture is quite different. So no need to worry, I'd say! Just keep voting.

LiviaDrusillaAugusta · 08/06/2017 17:38

And will they potentially be claiming child benefit for themselves while the state pays for 3 yrs of parental leave, all the healthcare they can handle and spa days?

What kind of lifestyle do people without families have? Are they dirt poor until they retire? Do they have a reasonable standard of living? Because it seems like they get the shitty end of the stick

Slimthistime · 08/06/2017 17:39

xpost Natsku

some people won't benefit at all though

ultimately do I want to scrimp and save myself or hand more over to the state?

the former.

this has been a real eye opener because like I said, I started out thinking I'd vote for Corbyn and now I'm really seeing why average or lower earners might vote Tory. The NHS being privatised by stealth will happen in stages won't it - it will be a charge per visit then gradually go up to crazy US levels. By which time I'll be dead!

I wish there was a common sense party that just concentrated on providing basics. I also really wish one party would mention overpopulation but not even the Greens....sorry I'm repeating myself.

LiviaDrusillaAugusta · 08/06/2017 17:40

And yy plenty of people are concerned about overpopulation - this kind of system has the potential to go to shit very quickly. Because presumably you need more people working and paying into the system than you have people taking spa days etc.

Also what happens with a change of government?

LiviaDrusillaAugusta · 08/06/2017 17:41

Me too - why trust the state? It's the one thing that has been proven to be a bad idea

Slimthistime · 08/06/2017 17:42

Livia, I think someone in the Czech Republic filed an Early Day Motion that the childfree/childless should pay more tax. This was a few years back. It does worry me that such a child centric society could end up that way.

All this "they will look after you and pay for your pension" - I don't believe there will be a state pension in future and the amount that has gone to put us all through education and health, does it cancel out well for the childless/childfree - no.

LiviaDrusillaAugusta · 08/06/2017 17:42

Why hasn't the OP bothered to come back?

Is she worried that you will all be moving there if Labour doesn't win? Grin

ravenmum · 08/06/2017 17:42

will they potentially be claiming child benefit for themselves while the state pays for 3 yrs of parental leave
No, because they can't be on parental leave and in full-time education at the same time.

What kind of lifestyle do people without families have?
They have more money than people with families, of course. Children are expensive :)