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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think that most people on Mumsnet would like to live like this?

384 replies

Uktopia · 08/06/2017 08:36

I live in a European country and have done for twenty years.

After one to three years' maternity leave (paid by the state, not the employer), which can be taken by either parent, nursery care is free from the age of one until the start of school.

University is free and all who graduate high school are admitted. Child benefit (non-means-tested) is paid until the child is 27 as long as they are in education.

I can always see the GP the same day. I can self refer to 8 different specialists per year and often get an appointment within a week or two and sometimes the same or next day (for more than 8, the GP can refer). Dentists (and for children, orthodontists) are included. If you have a chronic health condition, you can be prescribed a spa stay of three weeks to a specialised centre to help you manage your condition. Medical-grade breast pumps are prescribed to new mothers. There is no concept of a waiting list for operations or treatment. Sick pay is paid by the health system, as is carer's leave when your kids are sick. Disability benefits are permanent where the disability is unlikely to improve; no revaluation needed. IVF is free for four cycles per child and you can have as many children as you would have wanted had you not had fertility problems (guess what, most people stop at two).

Social housing is plentiful and no private landlords are involved in the system at all. For families with children with average incomes, the waiting lists are short. In the private property market, there is rent control and a lot of protection for tenants, so people can feel that a rented house is a home. Property speculation is disincentivised so house prices are fair. The state offers interest free loans to improve the basic amenities of your home, such as heating.

Unemployment insurance pays 80% of your last wage (to a cap of approx. 2.5% of the average income). For the first 7 months you are not obliged to take a job that pays less than your previous one or that is not in your field; after that you have to jump through a few hoops but nothing like the jobcentre. If you lose your eligibility for unemployment and have no income, you get emergency money of approx. £700 per month for as long as it takes. Despite it being very easy to stay on benefits, unemployment is low and recent years have seen periods of full employment.

Every four years, if your employer agrees, you can take a one year educational sabbatical anywhere in the world and the state pays 80% of your salary. I got my Oxford graduate degree for free. My job was protected until I went back.

Public transport is faster than driving as services are so frequent. A full annual all zones pass in the capital city costs less than £1 a day. An annual pass covering all public transport in the whole country, unlimited, is approx. £950. The rail system is state owned and tickets are based on a per kilometre price, rather than being pushed up by market forces.

Crime is low. Kids walk to school alone from a young age and women walk home alone at night at 3am.

When I earned exactly the average income (then £12,000 p.a.) I paid almost zero tax. Now I earn a lot more, so pay a lot of tax, but from my net income I can still comfortably save 50% as the cost of living is low even in the capital. The economy is fairly buoyant in general and most people would count as prosperous in the UK.

There's no nanny state or increased governmental control (in fact, the UK exerts much more control over its citizens). There's just a general lack of anxiety about the trials of life such as unemployment or disability.

It's no utopia, and the people are so used to some of these provisions that they take them totally for granted.

The UK could have this, and to be honest, I think we'd do it better and appreciate it more. Hearing people ridicule magical money trees while living in a real system like this is heartbreaking.

Voting Conservative today will take us further from a country like this than ever before.

OP posts:
LiviaDrusillaAugusta · 08/06/2017 17:44

Slim That is worrying. potentially I could work 50-60 years with minimal use of public services (no education, minimal healthcare etc). So I contribute too.

Although I think plenty of people on this thread would welcome the idea.

LiviaDrusillaAugusta · 08/06/2017 17:45

How do they have more money - they are presumably being rinsed for a large percentage of their salary by the government?

And with all the freebies, it doesn't sound like
Childcare would be that expensive.

Natsku · 08/06/2017 17:47

Because children cost a lot of money, even if you do get a lot of benefits, they still cost more.

Natsku · 08/06/2017 17:50

But that's where the collective culture comes in - when people contribute for the good of everyone, knowing that a rising tide raises all ships, and everyone gets something back (not just people with children, childless people benefit a hell of a lot too, everyone does) then people don't feel there's a divide, an us versus them, like people tend to feel in the UK. And also everyone contributes, for instance in Finland even the unemployed are taxed on their unemployment benefits.

LiviaDrusillaAugusta · 08/06/2017 17:50

And presumably the system relies on the single and child free to pay in and not take out?

LiviaDrusillaAugusta · 08/06/2017 17:51

How do childfree people benefit? Not snarky just that nobody seems to have clarified

ravenmum · 08/06/2017 17:55

Children don't just cost what you spend on childcare, as if that needed spelling out. You have to pay for a bigger home, more food,more heating, more water, more electricity, more clothes, a bigger car or more public transport tickets. I get €200 a month in child benefit for each child (17 and 19). That doesn't make me rich.

Believe me, I'd be very happy to pay less tax. And no doubt pissed off if I was paying others' child benefits, but hadn't got any myself. But do I want to move back to the UK and lose the safety net I have here in Germany? Back to the delights of the NHS?

No.

You're most welcome to vote to keep the status quo in the UK :)

Slimthistime · 08/06/2017 17:56

"people don't feel there's a divide, an us versus them, like people tend to feel in the UK."

I'd be interested to know if childfree people living in those countries feel better about their situation here or there. It could be similar to the crazy London problems - better in the financial sense if you can leave your support network but many will stay put because of that network. So you may not get childfreers leaving the Mysterious Utopia of the OP but that might be for all kinds of reasons. (shall we call it MUOP now, as this country doesn't have a name?)

I don't feel a huge sense of us vs them with childed and childfree here btw.

Slimthistime · 08/06/2017 17:57

raven, do you mind if I go a smidge OT and just check - healthcare isn't free in Germany is it?

I was ill in France once and had to pay all sorts of costs (recovered on travel insurance but presumably a citizen just has to pay).

haveacupoftea · 08/06/2017 17:57

Good for you ConfusedBiscuit

ravenmum · 08/06/2017 17:58

presumably the system relies on the single and child free to pay in and not take out?
Everyone pays in. The ones with children have to pay too. And everyone gets something out of the system, whether it is free education, medical care, old age care or subsidised transport. If they don't like it they can vote for the opposition.

Slimthistime · 08/06/2017 17:58

Raven "Back to the delights of the NHS?"

the NHS has been lovely for me, and that's experience living in 5 different boroughs.

ravenmum · 08/06/2017 18:01

Healthcare isn't free in the UK. You pay National Insurance. In Germany we pay insurance, too (just not National Insurance). If you have no income, your health insurance is free, the same way that you don't have to pay for National Insurance in the UK if you are not working.

When you go to the doctor's you give them your insurance card, and the insurance pays for your treatment. If you are privately insured like me, you might have to pay smaller sums up front, but you get it back instantly.

Natsku · 08/06/2017 18:02

How do childfree people benefit? Not snarky just that nobody seems to have clarified

Basically everything about the from the stuff related to children so infrastructure, healthcare, unemployment insurance, sabbatical leaves, education (for themselves), and general benefit derived from being in a more equal society e.g. less crime

ravenmum · 08/06/2017 18:03

Slim I listen to Radio 4 and from that it sounds like the NHS is on its last legs ... otherwise I just have anecdotal evidence which does not leave me gasping to get treated in the UK either :(

Natsku · 08/06/2017 18:04

I don't feel a huge sense of us vs them with childed and childfree here btw

In the UK the us versus them is more the employed versus the unemployed in my opinion

Natsku · 08/06/2017 18:06

And from my huge data field of one childfree friend who earns a decent wage and pays a decent amount of taxes - he doesn't mind paying for other people's children/parental leave etc.

Slimthistime · 08/06/2017 18:19

Raven, thanks, sorry. I thought there might be a top up on top of the NI equivalent for some reason.

ravenmum · 08/06/2017 18:19

The one thing I really don't like having to pay in Germany is the TV licence fee. €17.50 / 15 GBP a month and I don't actually watch TV... I see it is almost the same in Austria. Definitely not worth moving :)

LiviaDrusillaAugusta · 08/06/2017 18:20

raven now that IS shit! Grin

LinzerTorte · 08/06/2017 18:40

The TV licence is also about the only thing I object to paying for in Austria, ravenmum - we pay €300 a year for two channels that I never watch (the DC watch occasionally, though). And you have to pay even if you just have a radio.

Just showed this thread to Austrian DH, who said it has to be Austria as soon as he read the "less than £1 a day for public transport in the capital" comment - as I think a previous poster said, the €365 ticket for travel throughout Vienna was introduced with much fanfare a couple of years ago. He doesn't think that unlimited travel throughout the country can cost only £950, however, as he pays almost that much for his half-hour commute (including all public transport within Vienna) - unless there's some amazing ticket we haven't heard about?

LinzerTorte · 08/06/2017 18:45

I've just checked and there is a ticket that covers all train travel throughout Austria, but it would cost over £1,500 a year.

LinzerTorte · 08/06/2017 18:48

Although maybe the OP meant the family railcard, which costs just a couple of hundred euros more and covers two adults and all children under 15 - never heard of it before, so good to know!

MariafromMalmo · 08/06/2017 18:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Dragongirl10 · 08/06/2017 18:52

Well op the only thing l want to know is HOW DOES ALL THAT GET PAID FOR?

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