AIBU - Understanding Islam

[peggypatch99]

Hello All, first post (lurker of years and years).

I watched the concert last night, very emotional and tears shed, but afterwards I have felt myself become so angry, and I am not sure at what exactly, the world? Terrorists? The Government?

So I wanted to educate myself better and understand more about Islam in the west, how we are perceived and what life is like for Muslim's - I see posts on facebook and sometimes I agree but without knowing the ins and outs, which led me to trying to understand the muslim way of life and separate muslims from Islamic radicals - some people seem to put these in the same category despite the fact the IRA did not represent the Irish Catholic community as a whole.

However I looked at a Muslim forum, and to be honest I was shocked and upset at how we in Britain are perceived.

The forum (I appreciate not all Muslims will think in this manner) seeks to demonstrate how as women we must be completely submissive, if we are not men are allowed to strike us. There are conversations about how we are unclean unless we have undergone FGM, how in Britain we need to be taught that there is only one god, how homosexuality is wrong and people should be punished.

I wondered if perhaps Muslim ladies would share their thoughts on the forum, as this is giving me a distressing understanding of the religion, when I thought that Islam was a peaceful religion - but striking wives, withholding sex - or punishing and sleeping with other women, seems to be encouraged.

(This is advise given to a husband)
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

I am probably coming across as not very educated on the matter, and that is true, but would be interested in what Mumsnet think of this forum and whether forums like this are perhaps clouding our judgement of the religion as a whole.

I am Christian and can't say I visit Christian forums as there are always those who take scripture and amend the meaning for their own aim.

Here is the forum:
www.ummah.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?158-Marriage

Thank you, please note I am not a troll, I am someone wanting to learn better and understand. I think part of the problem is that without being educated properly it leads to incorrect thoughts and feelings which are very raw post attacks.

Can I say a huge thank you to all of those people who have given information and been so respectful of the views of others, I can see that many of us have asked questions and really learned interesting information.

I agree there is no need to bash each other and argue. I hope I have been respectful and open to ideas to be able to understand more.

RIinderella, I loved your post. I think we all know that the world was very different many years ago, but what I see from the posts is that the majority of us have moved on, respect what was previously written but can clearly see that the world is now a different place and we have adapted to the changes.

I have really enjoyed hearing from Muslim women who seem to be intelligent, forward thinking and have embraced their religion as partnerships with their husbands, it is clear to see that forums do not represent the whole picture just like a Christian forum would not.

To the poster who said you can't believe in Jesus if you respect other religions I am sorry that is not true. I believe we should be kind and understanding and that is why I made the post, I didn't come to argue the toss over God and Mohammed, I came to understand more about the everyday lives of Muslims.

I respect everyone's views and a huge thank you again, I want to live in a world of peace and understanding, and for me, learning more about Islam has opened my eyes and made me less negative and critical to see at the end of the day we all want peace and love in our world.

Long story short - if you follow the Koran you will become an extremist at one point or another.

I can't beleive I am actually reading that sentence - re-read it and listen to yourself!!!!!

Long story short - if you follow the Koran you will become an extremist at one point or another.

Putting in bold to see I am copying the previous poster - words fail me right now!

tucktalking, I am interested, and have been doing a lot of reading around the subject. My understanding is that there are 7 authorised versions of the Koran, but they are all in Arabic; there have been translations into many other languages, but these are not considered to be The Koran: rather they are called commentaries, to differentiate them from the Holy Koran in Arabic, which is believed by Islam to be the true Word of God only in that form.

My impression is that there is not just ONE message contained within it, but hundreds, relating to every aspect of life. Most Muslims choose to live by the peaceful, charitable laws it gives, but it also contains many other instructions/exhortations, does it not?

Exhortations to jihad, by violent means if required; to stone to death homosexuals and adulterous women; to cut off hands for thievery; many instructions regarding the 'right conduct' of women, which the majority of Western women would see as repressively patriarchal at best, and abusive at worst.

The acts of terrorism committed in the name of Islam (according to the perpetrators themselves, not according to me), have their roots in clear instructions in the Koran. Given that every single word of the Koran is believed to have come, in fullness of perfection, straight from the mouth of God, how can the Koran (and by extension, Islam) ever be 'reformed'? These extremists believe they are obeying Allah, because they are obeying certain parts of the Koran; how would a peace-loving Muslim argue with them about that?

I am genuinely interested in any answers to that question, as I think that any societal 'solution' (as opposed to legislative, state intervention) surely must come principally from the Muslim community.

Noeuf No I didnt say that, I think you mixed me up with someone else. In regards to hijab I said this- for me it's more about expressing my faith and identity as a muslim and doesn't have a lot to do with men although there is an element of that.
SleepOhHowIMissYou I was raised Muslim along with my brother who is now an atheist, the Quran tells us that there is no compulsion in religion.
peggypatch I've enjoyed taking part in this thread too, it's been a lot more pleasant than some of the ones on mn recently despite a few bad eggs lol

Tucktalking

Any good person can become evil, irrespective of what book they read. In reality, these terrorists, do NOT read the whole Qur'an. Which is part of the problem, especially when posts like yours turn up.

Have you read the whole Qur'an?

When conversations like these turn so horrid, I always get quite upset. Have all the opposing posters really studied Islam in depth? If not and you're just reading snippets off google and islamophobic material then I really find it insulting to all the Muslim women posters, where you are inferring they are incapable of independent thought, basic intelligence and freedom to choose a way of life for themselves. Unlike those terrorists, who have NOT studied Islam and not lived life according what the Qur'an says. Yet they are called Muslim extremists. If anything they are quite the opposite.

We've been facing all the accusations above, we've explained them as above, and the person making them usually runs off without any interest to learn otherwise. They leave these comments everywhere and that really helps those who are vulnerable to becoming terrorists. When there's hundreds of non-Muslims spreading such lies such as 'killing all apostates and non-believers' is part of Islam, do we really need Daesh to recruit loonies?

The acts of terrorism committed in the name of Islam (according to the perpetrators themselves, not according to me), have their roots in clear instructions in the Koran. Given that every single word of the Koran is believed to have come, in fullness of perfection, straight from the mouth of God, how can the Koran (and by extension, Islam) ever be 'reformed'? These extremists believe they are obeying Allah, because they are obeying certain parts of the Koran; how would a peace-loving Muslim argue with them about that? * ISIS and people who follow that ideology will take a few words from the Quran, they will disregard the context entirely and then disregard whether the words were time specific and meant for Muhammad pbuh or whether they were meant for all muslims and all times. Then they will twist the meaning of the words to suit what they want to do. As you say we believe the Quran is the word of God, so if these surahs really instructed us to behave as ISIS do I really don't think ISIS would be a minority group. I don't believe the Quran needs reformation of any kind and you would struggle to find a Muslim who does. The problem is not the Quran, the problem is people. Please also be aware that many, if not most, ISIS recruits and supporters actually have very little Islamic knowledge which is why they are easy to manipulate.

there have been translations into many other languages, but these are not considered to be The Koran: rather they are called commentaries, to differentiate them from the Holy Koran in Arabic, which is believed by Islam to be the true Word of God only in that form.

That makes sense to me: there is no such thing as perfect direct translation of anything more complicated than "I have two sons" so any translation necessarily involves editorial.

Sprinkles Great post, I completely agree with everything you said

Thank you v much Stateless and Sprinkles.

There is a whole world of interpretation and knowledge to apply before drawing conclusions from the Quran. This is not specific. Christians have "Bible Studies" for exactly the same reason.

CS

The word Jihad means struggle and out of that, the primary purpose is to struggle with yourself to become a better person. That's the essence of Jihad. Yes the third aspect is by violence if required but that is only in defence. The Prophet Muhammad only took up arms when he was directly attacked. At this point, the early Muslims had been cut off from the society in Mecca, trade was prohibited with any Muslims so they were essentially starved to death (including his dear wife and his uncle who had adopted him after his parents and grandparent died) And as a result Muslims migrated to another town. After that Arab tribes attacked them and Muslims defended themselves. That's it. And even then, the Prophet forbade killing of innocents, any women or children, destroying any place of worship and even down to cutting trees was forbidden. How is that in line with anything Daesh do? They attack women, children, places of worship mindlessly and kill Muslims more than non-muslims.

The punishment for adultery (same-sex and not) for men and women is exactly the same. It's 100 lashes if four credible witnesses are found. That's four witnesses. Which is highly unlikely. Nothing about stoning to death, that's actually the Old Testament.

Then on top of that, al punishments in the Qur'an come with the prerequisite of forgiveness. It's better to forgive in most cases.

In terms of women and their conduct, except covering of our heads, they're exactly the same as men.

Great posts Dixie, shame that it has not been picked upon especially by the Muslims on this thread.

Exactly Pannn, even Muslims aren't to stop reading the Qur'an once they've read it once. It's meant to be part of our daily lives. It has so much guidance and to understand the real meaninsg, you really have to make an effort to study it.

I was born Muslim, but at the age of 16/17 I questioned everything about my faith. I'm a strong headed person and not just a blind follower so I wanted to know the answers to all these questions above. So I learnt. I still learn today. Not to preach to others but to become a better person.

Still can't see where Dixie had made a great post. IF it's to do with the Quran being the direct word of God and therefore needs no interpretation then you will see A.It's in Arabic which has some words for which there is no immediate literal translation in English and B. The word of God are still words, and thus require usage and context analysis.

I also haven't seen any great or even interesting posts from Dixie which is why I haven't commented on any of them

Timetobackout

I haven't responded to it the same way Sadiq Khan has not responded to Trump. You're not closely following the Qur'an by taking out a single line out of a single verse (nevermind in English let alone in Arabic).

Islam means peace. Quite literally. We say hello by saying 'may Peace and Blessings be on you.'

The Qur'an amongst many other peaceful teachings says 'To you your religion, to me mine.' Then it says 'There is no compulsion in religion.' Then it commands you to love your neighbour (note, no mention of Muslim neighbour). Then it says 'Killing a single person is akin to killing whole of mankind. Saving one person's life is akin to saving the whole mankind.'

So are extremists following the whole Qur'an or just the parts that further their political agenda?? Let's not forget that Daesh wants to establish an 'Islamic' state. It's all for political power. Any numpty can see that they are not going to get far in spreading Islam by killing Muslims. That's just counter-intuitive.

Also you cannot force people to become Muslims. You can't. Prophet Muhammad didn't. Because God judges actions on intentions. How can you outwardly be Muslim and gain reward if inside you are doing it out of fear for your life?

That is Islam. Peace. Not what a few power hungry bigots are doing.

I just want to thank everyone who has taken the time to explain things on this thread. I've found it so helpful.

By showing that Islam is peaceful and does not allow for violent conduct, then Dixie's post becomes redundant. It doesn't exist in the Qur'an.

I have wonderful friends from diff faiths who never impose their views on anyone. I believe your religion or lack of is your business. Two things get to me whatever the faith. One the absolute belief that ones religion is the right one and everyone else is dammed, surely God if there is one is more tolerant. Two this 'I dress modestly because I want men to judge me on my intellect'. I dress because I feel like it period.

'Islam means peace quite literally' . No it doesn't you have it means
Submission( to the will of God) if as you say you have questioned everything about your faith I suggest you develop your critical faculties rather more.

the absolute belief that ones religion is the right one and everyone else is dammed I think this is more of a Christian thing Fido. I think there is truth in every religion but that Islam is the whole truth. I definitely don't think everyone else is damned, that's just ridiculous.
There are also lots of different reasons why Muslim women cover themselves but if some women choose to for that reason I'm not sure why that would get to you?

"I suggest you develop your critical faculties rather more."

so long as you lay off the Pompous Pills.

timetobackout

The word is derived from the Arabic root “SALEMA” which has the definitions of peace, purity, submission and obedience.

Disclaimer I'm no scholar of faith but I'm not a stupid, thick, close minded person either who just follows her faith blindly . And I agree, my critical faculties need to be developed further. But I've got a good few years (I hope!!).

I agree Fido. Religion is and should be a personal thing unless it affects people around you negatively.

And your reasoning to dress however you want is just as valid as every other women's choice. Be that they feel more respected by men, be that for their faith, be that because they just want to. As long as it is their choice, you cannot tell them they are wrong because of the reason not aligning to yours.

So are extremists following the whole Qur'an or just the parts that further their political agenda?? Let's not forget that Daesh wants to establish an 'Islamic' state. It's all for political power.

I didn't talk about Daesh. I talked about people being on shaky ground when claiming fundamentalists are not true Muslims due to the justification they can find in the Quran, and also the uselessness of moral and cultural relativist arguments when talking about things that are condoned in the time of the Quran, since it cannot be viewed as simply an account of the standards of the time in the way the Bible can, for the reasons given.

I didn't realise the thread was only for Muslim women to talk about their flavour of Islam and brush over other Muslims' ones - indeed, even brushing aside posts by a Muslim woman who doesn't tell the same story - unchallenged. While they, and a few others, make jibes at people who don't agree, but who have been nothing but polite. I guess it being in AIBU made me think there was actually space for other points of view. Evidently there wasn't even room for a dissenting Muslim woman's point of view, so I can see there's no point in me posting here.

If all the OP wanted was apologist posts, I misunderstood. So, I'm off out of the echo chamber.