AIBU - Understanding Islam

[peggypatch99]

Hello All, first post (lurker of years and years).

I watched the concert last night, very emotional and tears shed, but afterwards I have felt myself become so angry, and I am not sure at what exactly, the world? Terrorists? The Government?

So I wanted to educate myself better and understand more about Islam in the west, how we are perceived and what life is like for Muslim's - I see posts on facebook and sometimes I agree but without knowing the ins and outs, which led me to trying to understand the muslim way of life and separate muslims from Islamic radicals - some people seem to put these in the same category despite the fact the IRA did not represent the Irish Catholic community as a whole.

However I looked at a Muslim forum, and to be honest I was shocked and upset at how we in Britain are perceived.

The forum (I appreciate not all Muslims will think in this manner) seeks to demonstrate how as women we must be completely submissive, if we are not men are allowed to strike us. There are conversations about how we are unclean unless we have undergone FGM, how in Britain we need to be taught that there is only one god, how homosexuality is wrong and people should be punished.

I wondered if perhaps Muslim ladies would share their thoughts on the forum, as this is giving me a distressing understanding of the religion, when I thought that Islam was a peaceful religion - but striking wives, withholding sex - or punishing and sleeping with other women, seems to be encouraged.

(This is advise given to a husband)
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

I am probably coming across as not very educated on the matter, and that is true, but would be interested in what Mumsnet think of this forum and whether forums like this are perhaps clouding our judgement of the religion as a whole.

I am Christian and can't say I visit Christian forums as there are always those who take scripture and amend the meaning for their own aim.

Here is the forum:
www.ummah.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?158-Marriage

Thank you, please note I am not a troll, I am someone wanting to learn better and understand. I think part of the problem is that without being educated properly it leads to incorrect thoughts and feelings which are very raw post attacks.

Incidentally, I'd like to know what exactly about my position you are referring to with this:

Probably because your position conveniently ignores the reality that humans are capable of independent thought and are socially and culturally dynamic.

?

I'm a Muslim woman, on the day I was born my father and grandfather went to over a 100 houses with sweets, to deliver the good news that his wife had given birth to a daughter - this was the start of the love, respect and empowerment I was to receive.

My mother didn't work a day in her life, not because she was oppressed but because my father was taught by his, that it was a mans responsibility to provide for his family. There was no resentment in this decision, my father went out and worked extremely hard and every Friday handed his salary to my mother to run the house as she wished.

My father read Islamic scriptures to me every Thursday night, it included teachings of kindness, how to help others, charity and lessons about the great women in Islam such as Khadijah, Ayesha, Maryam (known as Mary), Fatimah, Hawa (known as Eve) and many more. He taught me how women were used as commodities, sold or buried alive until Allah revealed the Quran and forbade such acts.

My life has been full of strong men, many of whom cried when I returned home with a 6 week old baby after my ex husband (Muslim) abused the life out of me. They didn't cry because I'd returned home, they cried because I put up with the abuse for so long, without uttering a word to any of them. They revived a single mother, and reminded me of my teachings so I could stand within society with my head held high.

Islam empowers women to the maximum. You get knobhead people everywhere who will treat not only women, but everyone with disrespect. The most important thing is to never judge a person, a persons religion isn't of relevance, like or dislike a person for who they are.

As a practising British Muslim woman, I would love to have a calm and sensible discussion on threads like this. What prevents me from doing so is the vitriolic and argumentative comments from anti-Muslims who have little understanding of true Muslim belief, culture and customs yet end up taking over the threads and also the pace of the threads themselves which mean it's just impossible to keep up.

As a result, voices like mine are shouted down before we really get a chance to post more than once. Which is a shame as I am quite knowledgeable of Islam.

If there's ever a calm and peaceful thread asking this same question, I'd love to participate. At a maximum of one or two posts a day.

R1nderCella and Lulooo, are you Muslim because you have been raised Muslim, or do you sincerely believe that an angel visited the Prophet to relay Allah's message?

If the latter, do you believe in angels generally? What's the stance on modern day angels? If they still exist, why do they no longer visit us to pass on messages?

@SleepOhHowIMissYou - I was raised as a Muslim and now in my adult life, I choose to remain a Muslim. Yes I believe that the Angel Jibraeel relayed the revelation to the Prophet Muhammad PBUH. I believe this because it is written many times in the Quran. There are also other angels who have specific duties such as Mikaeel who is responsible for rain etc.

I'm what you'd call a westernized/modern Muslim, I would not call myself learned at all. What I do know and believe is that, Angels are a part of Islamic history, and will always remain but they are not visible to the human eye. I'd be a bit startled if I bumped into Jibraeel (Gabriel) who is described to have 600 wings in his true form.

For me, this is the beauty of Islam. I don't need to see angels or prophets etc, in my heart I believe that Allah exists and I believe in everything that was revealed.

So, if I told you I could see and speak to angels, you'd believe me?

What I have to say might come across the wrong way to some of you... please don't. I just want to make a point of how Islam is alienating itself... giving rise to islam -phobia. Giving food to hate and racism on religious grounds.
My DD (9 at the time) did talk about different faith groups in our community as part of primary RE. They went to visit a church, no specific requirements. They went to see a Hindu temple... children where asked to take their shoes off ... fair enough. They went to see a mosque... girls where asked to bring head scarves. We didn't have a appropriate head covering, just like a few of the other girls. (She had a fashion type head thing that was deemed to small!) These girls where not allowed to enter the mosque and had to wait outside.
DD was distraught, as she thought it was not fair, she felt singled out for inadequate clothing.
This is quite a few years back. Why had the mosque closed its door to some children? There was a great opportunity to show children the fun side of religion, to influence them in a positive way... instead their first encounter was "your head is not concerned correctly, you can't come in!" It's sad. And now, DD is a teen, getting all the media hype... remembering that she wasn't welcome...

Chloe84 Mary did not give birth to Jesus at 12. What complete nonsense. There is absolutely no evidence for this. She was a teenager is what tradition says but we do not know any more.

Ylvamoon At the mosque I go to we have a box of scarves for visitors who don't have one but we don't request that primary school children wear one anyway. To say that this incident could feed Islamophobia, hate and racism does seem like a massive overreaction to me though, as does using this incident to illustrate your view that ''Islam is alienating itself''. I don't think its reasonable to judge over a billion people based on the fact that your daughter wasn't allowed inside a mosque. It mostly just sounds like poor communication and organisation between the mosque, school and parents.

Sorry your DD had such a negative experience of a mosque visit and as you say, now talk of Islam in the media/her perception maybe be based on her previous experience.
I think it is dependent upon the individual mosque, no mosque should forbid children entering, especially those who wish to learn. Educating oneself is regarded as highly important in Islam and great emphasis is placed on learning any way you can.
Our mosque and Islamic centre, regularly hold open days for the local community, stalls and talks with food and lots for children to learn. Maybe keep your eye out for such events locally, as it would be a shame for you and your DD to not experience a positive visit.

A mosque is classed as a house of God, as a church is, a place where anyone can seek refuge, without discrimination. I have taken DD 4, to the mosque with no scarf and a Paw Patrol cape on...the imam said it was good to see her attending, the more she learns, the more she can form her own opinions.

statelessprincess I agree with you, a religion with over 1.6 billion followers, even accounting for population growth, which is the second largest in the world, must have something positive which attracts and retains followers.
Judging ALL the Muslims in the world by the actions of a few is just illogical. Ok, so it's not all Muslims...nobody is judging ALL Muslims! Oh but they are, a simple MN debate descends into an interrogation, expecting a Muslim MNer to answer offensive/confrontational and simply odd questions, when the poster disagrees with the answer, you still get vilified!
I really admire you keeping respectful and answering questions on these threads! Hopefully some good will come of it, as it is opening dialogue /debate and at the end of it...we are all mostly mums, who just want the same thing...uninterrupted sleep, control of the tv remote and some chocolate! Hehe

Regarding the school trip and scaef... most mosques wouldnt do that and have scarves to hand. Saying that my nan went to the local mosque to see for herself for my sake and they said not to worry about her hair. The imams wife amswered all her questions introduced her to some of the regulars and her husband the imam. Who shook her hand so yeah not all mosques are how you discussed. Ive been im churches and not felt welcome before. Yet i go to a mum and toddler group in a church hall and have lovely conversations with the past and present revereand. Walked home with them before too.

BeeThirtythree You're so right, I do find the interrogator posters so boring and annoying, and they always say the same things, I wish they would come up with something new! I do try to stay polite and respectful but I don't always manage it lol I just think it's important that we Muslims engage with non Muslims and are heard, especially at the moment in the UK. We don't have to agree on absolutely everything, we don't have to live the same or dress the same but if we can at least understand and accept each others choices and beliefs I think it would have a positive impact. Off to hunt for some chocolate now

Chloe84 Mary did not give birth to Jesus at 12. What complete nonsense. There is absolutely no evidence for this. She was a teenager is what tradition says but we do not know any more.

She was betrothed at 12 according to Jewish and apocryphal accounts.

But I agree it's difficult to know for sure.

Just as it's difficult to know for sure how old Ayesha was. But people with an agenda seem happy to state unequivocally that she was 9 even though there is evidence she was 19.

@SleepOhHowIMissYou - I may not necessarily understand how you see and speak to angels but each to their own, I wouldn't disrespect you because I believe humans can't see angels and you say you can.

@Ylvamoon - The mosque your DD attended, was very poorly managed. Like a pp has stated, a mosque is a place of worship where one should be able to enter. I have attended 4 Christian funerals, at a church, where I was not made to feel out of place. The mosque I attend, also has scarves available for women to cover their heads with and regularly hold open days for people of other faiths.

KungFuEric - I'll try explain best I can. It made sense to me that hair is a part of beauty and my beauty isn't for 'non-mahram' (these are all the men that you can marry, so not your father brother nephew son etc). My beauty is for the person I chose to spend my life with (i.e. My husband). It can be interpreted in two ways - women are oppressed or women are so precious that they aren't to be gawped at. I've experienced a lot less male (Muslim and non Muslim) attention since wearing the hijab and generally when being spoken to by males (Muslim and non Muslim) they have more respect for me.

*Stateless I think you posted this earlier? Don't you find it sad that you experience more respect from men as you wear the hijab? And the two interpretations - either you are oppressed or not to be gawped at?

I find it really hard that if men are either oppressive or gawpers it's women who have to change what they do.

I don't really care what people believe or worship but it just feels like some practices are quite regressive.

**

@Ylvamoon As a Muslim, I hate it when mosques make girls wear a headscarf to enter. To me, this seems like a cultural practice, common amongst Asian muslims, I think. The mosue I attend doesn't make any women wear a headscarf.

The purpose of the hijab has nothing to do with where a person is and it is something prescribed only for Muslim women over the age of puberty. Forcing non-muslim women and girls to wear it to enter a mosque is wrong.

In response to the poster (can't remember who) who mentioned the Prophet Muhammad married a child (in the 7th century):

In the 14th century, King Richard II married a six-year old.

My grandparents were of Indian origin. As recent as 70-80 years ago (when my grandparents married), Indians were marrying young. One of my grandmothers was 13 when she married, the other was 11. People got married young then - that was their culture.

So, it's not something that only happened in Islam. It was happening elsewhere even centuries after Prophet Muhammad.

Also, the Prophet married Aisha when she was a child, but the marriage was not consummated and she did not live with him until she was older.

Mission, actually I am religious - I believe that Jesus is the ultimate revelation and Islam comes from Satan. If you believe in Jesus then Muhammad HAS to be false!

Then my point still stands. If you think Muhammad is false then therefore he doesn't exist by your logic and so why are you questioning stateless about him if you don't believe in his existence except to be deliberately goady???

It's like me asking you "Well if God is so loving why does he allow wars to happen"? I wouldn't ask that question because I don't believe in God and if I was put a question like that to you it would only be to further my own agenda or try and trap you into an argument

"If you think Muhammad is false then therefore he doesn't exist by your logic "

Er, no; Mohammad the man can have existed without everyone agreeing that he was the final prophet of God. There's plenty of historical evidence for his existence, and all the battles he waged, and the several young wives he took. That evidence has no bearing on whether he was a false or true prophet.

the several young wives he took

He mostly married widows, and often to make ties with other tribes. But feel free to spread your lies.

The old adage 'Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.' springs to mind.

I can't see angels R1nderCella, however, I can see Brocken Specres. These are optical illusions caused by the weather, essentially your own reflection is refracted by mist (commonly on mountains) with a rainbow spectrum halo of light surrounding the figure. www.weatheronline.co.uk/reports/wxfacts/Brocken-Spectre.htm

My logic determines that angels do not exist. However, as we inhabit a vast universe, I'm prepared to accept that an alien species may exist somewhere out there, could they have visited earth though?

These 1.6 billion followers mentioned upthread, yes, I'd agree that there must be something in it if it were not for apostasy and the penalties associated with abandonment of Islam. Also, though many convert, religions are mostly inherited from parents, which is why I asked if posters here were Muslim because their culture and family are Muslim? The same could be said for any religion or culture, I am agnostic and was raised by non-practising Christians (i.e. Christians by culture, followers of Easter Eggs and Santa Claus, not Jesus).

Surely it's time for personal freedom? If logic decrees that something is unlikely then people who question should not be accused of Islamaphobia, and those raised Muslim should be free to question (and cease believing) without social stigma from their community.

If you want to fully understand what Islam is all about get your answer direct from the source - The Koran......... read it and then you will understand the real message. No beating around the bush. You are guaranteed to become life changed.