AIBU - Understanding Islam

[peggypatch99]

Hello All, first post (lurker of years and years).

I watched the concert last night, very emotional and tears shed, but afterwards I have felt myself become so angry, and I am not sure at what exactly, the world? Terrorists? The Government?

So I wanted to educate myself better and understand more about Islam in the west, how we are perceived and what life is like for Muslim's - I see posts on facebook and sometimes I agree but without knowing the ins and outs, which led me to trying to understand the muslim way of life and separate muslims from Islamic radicals - some people seem to put these in the same category despite the fact the IRA did not represent the Irish Catholic community as a whole.

However I looked at a Muslim forum, and to be honest I was shocked and upset at how we in Britain are perceived.

The forum (I appreciate not all Muslims will think in this manner) seeks to demonstrate how as women we must be completely submissive, if we are not men are allowed to strike us. There are conversations about how we are unclean unless we have undergone FGM, how in Britain we need to be taught that there is only one god, how homosexuality is wrong and people should be punished.

I wondered if perhaps Muslim ladies would share their thoughts on the forum, as this is giving me a distressing understanding of the religion, when I thought that Islam was a peaceful religion - but striking wives, withholding sex - or punishing and sleeping with other women, seems to be encouraged.

(This is advise given to a husband)
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

I am probably coming across as not very educated on the matter, and that is true, but would be interested in what Mumsnet think of this forum and whether forums like this are perhaps clouding our judgement of the religion as a whole.

I am Christian and can't say I visit Christian forums as there are always those who take scripture and amend the meaning for their own aim.

Here is the forum:
www.ummah.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?158-Marriage

Thank you, please note I am not a troll, I am someone wanting to learn better and understand. I think part of the problem is that without being educated properly it leads to incorrect thoughts and feelings which are very raw post attacks.

@user1484615313

You don't have to all become terrorists. But it looks like many are atm.

There are almost 2 billion Muslims around the world. How many of us are becoming terrorists exactly? If there were 30,000 terrorists, that would equate to 1% of the global Muslim population.

@mrspeelyway

I am confused, you don't think I am sincere because the forum I saw has a post in family about FGM and someone trying to find information about this being done in the UK?

I know what FGM is because I have read news stories ???? I didn't know there was any connection to Islam, and perhaps there is not this is an isolated post in that forum.

Not sure what you mean by sincere? You will probably not meet a more honest person, I admitted I was ignorant about Islam and came here for help.

They aren't Muslims because the teachings of Prophet Muhammad tell us they aren't Muslim. In Islam, a person cannot be a Muslim simply because they claim to be. These terrorists' actions show that they are kharijites, who the Prophet condemned.

That 👆 was to Lavenderhue

Ok.
But this type of stuff is confusing me:

Any thoughts?

Let's call them Islamic terrorists then.

They aren't Muslims because the teachings of Prophet Muhammad tell us they aren't Muslim

Well he'll know best.

"What Muslims mean when we say 'people with whom we have an agreement' is people in whose lands we live or who live in"

...and right here is the problem. People born in the UK are British citizens, however, British born Muslims identify as Muslim first. Elevating Islam above Britishness creates a divide. If a Muslim identity is viewed as the pinnacle of a person's worth, then everything else (everyone else) is lesser by default, and from this seed springs extremism (rascism and murderous hatred of non-Muslim people).

@quintessesntial this confuses me too!

Thank you for response to my comments. I admit I have only really heard about the passages in th Qu'ran that promote violence so it is reassuring to know there are words also that say the opposite. I'd like to read it fully but doubt I will ever have the time. Same as I doubt I will ever manage to read the Bible fully. I have really been worried about Islamic ideology and culture and how it might affect and eventually destroy the Christian liberalism prevalent in the west (through immigration and reproduction rather than through terrorism as horrific as that might be). Some interesting posts anyway, especially the one about kharijites. That idea should be promoted.

The whole "Islamic extremists" argument doesn't really wash with me - it's just a version of the "No true Scotsman" fallacy. Islam, like Christianity, has multiple variants, adherents of which, as with Christianity, tend to think of the others as not "real" Muslims.

The biggest division in Islam is between Sunni and Shia Muslims - it's a division that has existed since the death of Muhammad, and is the source of many of the conflicts in the Middle East today. (Again, there are obvious parallels with Catholic and Protestant versions of Christianity.)

The terrorists attacking Britain and other European countries have an allegiance to an extreme form of Sunni Islam known as Wahhabism, which originated in Saudi Arabia but has spread to other Middle Eastern countries such as Pakistan, threatening the more liberal Muslim traditions. These delightful people kill both Shias and Christians, because they regard both as unbelievers.

A good article here about the Saudi influence and the pernicious effect it has had in Pakistan and elsewhere:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/06/theresa-may-wants-to-talk-about-extremism-lets-start-with-our-ties-with-the-saudis

Quintissential That video is shocking. We need some explanation from the Muslims here about that. It does not sit well with some of the explanations already given.

peggy

Does anyone know when we see comments like that on online forums (e.g. FGM etc) whether it can be reported and what the government can do about it?

It breaks my heart that ignorant and selfish people can get away with doing things like that while openly declaring it on the internet.

Quintessential

The answer is given in his first opening segments. Those are views majority of Muslims don't hold and that's why they keep getting complaints.

That material right there is what drives those men, who don't independently study the Qur'an and Hadith in full to extremism.

He's very clever in engaging them and making it look like 'all muslims' agree with that stuff. Look how he starts by asking them about segregation which is part of Islam where possible and not imposed on others. He then praises them and tells them what 'good Muslims they are'. Then he asks whether they agree with the Qur'an and Sunnah, just adding stoning for adultery as a side note. My question is how many of those have studied and understood Islam. How many read the Qur'an to make an independent decision and how many have followed their imam with these sort of views? Those are people who help extremists recruit. They should not be allowed platforms to speak anywhere and radicalise anyone.

On this post alone many have disproven of what they are saying.

If you want I can PM you (or post a link) of the Peace conferences we have been holding for years where our local MP and other members of the community attend. There's nothing peaceful about theirs. It gets me quite angry how they play mind games with those vulnerable to their ideology.

Sprinkles

I have no idea, I think there is a foundation for girls who have been affected (this is what I saw on the news) I would presume that intelligence look at the forum closely - someone said this earlier.

I suppose in that way also, if you read the forum there are people who are talking about striking their wives, which would be domestic violence also.

Also good post hackmum

"but no sane Muslim is calling for shariah law to be implemented in the UK. "

I totally disagree with this statement. Hundreds of thousands of UK muslims live under sharia. Any genuine muslim woman, wouldnt even contemplate say divorce, without seeking sharia council 'guidance'. We have acknowledged sharia councils/courts here in the Uk and accomodate them under our 'arbitration' laws. This is because both the BMC and the muslim community at large, has requested we do so, in the name of religious tolerance.

What appears to be happening, is the then cherry picking of which parts of 'sharia' UK muslims wish to adhere to. Unfortunately its an all or nothing religion. Living as a moderate, doesnt mean, the more extreme parts of sharia are irrelevant, its just that moderates choose not to live under those bits.

OP, what confuses us, is there is a conflict between religion and societal laws. Islam covers both. I can understand why it was neccesary 2000 years ago, parliaments, democracy didnt exist as we know it today, and societies need laws to live under to support civilisation.

I am one of those who calls for reform of the Islam faith. IMO, there is no place in a modern democratic society for a 2 tier legal system, and certainly no place where religious law, top trumps democratic law.

I am one who calls for the banning of any/all sharia councils. Every citizen in the UK, irrespective of race, religion, sex, should be entitled to the protection of the same laws. That isnt the case in the UK today.

I really hope so Peggy. I do think the first step to eradicating extremism is taking down this sort of stuff, monitoring mosques and madrassahs and having a government backed body of Muslims that go out and educate those who have been exposed to any extremists material.

And those who spread such lies should be prosecuted under hate crimes and incitement of violence. Simple.

Thank you sunshine it is eery how accurate the description is of the terrorists.

I can't remember exactly but the quote I was sent was from a scholar over 100 years ago saying pretty much the same thing and that they will use knives to kill people rather than other weapons. Again very accurate.

Thanks Caroline, your post makes a lot of sense, would be good if the Muslim ladies could address Sharia Law and perhaps give their take on this?

Agree Sprinkles, government backed body of Muslims is a good point, education is the key here.

I've read quite a bit of this thread & it's difficult to know what the hell to believe. It's all very confusing.

purple This is the most recent thing i've watched re - Islam & Muhammed

Sprinkles Thanks for your answer. I see your point re - homosexuality in major religions, however in my C of E Church we have members of our congregation who are gay. None of us, including the Vicar, could care less. It's such an old fashioned & ridiculous notion that homosexuality is not "right" Our church has quite rightly moved with the times. I class myself as a Christian and I have many gay friends who are wonderful. Is this the same for the Islamic faith? Do mosque's make homosexual Muslim's welcome?

VillageFete
Your faith and beliefs are private. I as a person can not judge, or think any less of a person. Neither am I allowed or do I care if a person prays, wears the hijab etc. It doesn't affect me in any way and I'm not responsible for other's actions. Nor does my mosque or imam or anyone ask people entering the mosque about their sexual orientation. Or anything in matters of religion for that fact.

Again, for me faith is something personal. So whatever the Muslim sat next to me does has nothing to do with me.

I agree Caroline sharia law should have no place in Britain. Everyone of us should come under the same laws. Sharia should have no relevance at all.

It's difficult to discuss 'Islam', in the same way it is difficult to discuss 'Judaism' and 'Christianity'.

All three have branches that see men as superior and the 'head of the family'.

You will find some Christians who say Catholics are not Christian.

I shocked a Muslim colleague when I said some of the students were Muslim, students are Kosovan so are white, don't wear a veil, wear skirts. |Colleague doesn't wear Hijab but does always wear trousers but it just hadn't occurred to her that these European children were the dame faith.

OP don't forget most people who go on forums to discuss religion are probably quite religious and looking for people who have the same mindset.

I used to get a bacon sandwich from a cafe run by a Persian family. We got in to a discussion about the bacon, I said I was surprised that the family eat pork, the owner's answer was that,'well we are Muslims, but we didn't really want to be, it was forced on us'.

The vast majority of people in the world want to live in peace, give their children a good education and hope they have a better life.

peggy My view on shariah courts in the UK is that in theory they are a good thing. In practise, from what I've read recently, this is not always the case. I believe they should be regulated and monitored and as far as I'm aware they aren't at the moment. I have no personal experience with them at all so I can only go on what I hear from other people and what I read. In Islam Muslims have to live according to the laws of the country they reside in so there are only a few situations that warrant the need of shariah courts in Britain. I do believe they need to be available for women who seek divorce. In regards to the groups and people like Anjem Choudary who want to see the whole of britain adhere to shariah I find that preposterous- Britain is not a muslim country.
My general thoughts on shariah as a legal system is that for the most part it's an excellent one. Most of the laws come from the Quran and hadith. I believe that any law that contradicts them should be discarded. A lot of non Muslims instantly seem to think of capital punishment when they hear the word shariah. The laws relating to capital and corporal punishment form only a tiny part of Islamic law. When adhered to correctly the conditions that have to be met for someone to be executed are so strict that it should be incredibly rare. In the Quran and from life of Muhammad pbuh we learn that forgiveness is better than retaliation. Forgiveness can avert capital punishment too.

Thanks States, to be honest I don't know much about Sharia Law at all, I would say my knowledge is limited to stoning in the street for adultery (I am not even sure if that is right, probably something Ihave read/heard before)!

I agree it has no place in the UK, but if someone hurt my child - I would want the death penalty so perhaps I am hypocritical.