AIBU - Understanding Islam

[peggypatch99]

Hello All, first post (lurker of years and years).

I watched the concert last night, very emotional and tears shed, but afterwards I have felt myself become so angry, and I am not sure at what exactly, the world? Terrorists? The Government?

So I wanted to educate myself better and understand more about Islam in the west, how we are perceived and what life is like for Muslim's - I see posts on facebook and sometimes I agree but without knowing the ins and outs, which led me to trying to understand the muslim way of life and separate muslims from Islamic radicals - some people seem to put these in the same category despite the fact the IRA did not represent the Irish Catholic community as a whole.

However I looked at a Muslim forum, and to be honest I was shocked and upset at how we in Britain are perceived.

The forum (I appreciate not all Muslims will think in this manner) seeks to demonstrate how as women we must be completely submissive, if we are not men are allowed to strike us. There are conversations about how we are unclean unless we have undergone FGM, how in Britain we need to be taught that there is only one god, how homosexuality is wrong and people should be punished.

I wondered if perhaps Muslim ladies would share their thoughts on the forum, as this is giving me a distressing understanding of the religion, when I thought that Islam was a peaceful religion - but striking wives, withholding sex - or punishing and sleeping with other women, seems to be encouraged.

(This is advise given to a husband)
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

I am probably coming across as not very educated on the matter, and that is true, but would be interested in what Mumsnet think of this forum and whether forums like this are perhaps clouding our judgement of the religion as a whole.

I am Christian and can't say I visit Christian forums as there are always those who take scripture and amend the meaning for their own aim.

Here is the forum:
www.ummah.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?158-Marriage

Thank you, please note I am not a troll, I am someone wanting to learn better and understand. I think part of the problem is that without being educated properly it leads to incorrect thoughts and feelings which are very raw post attacks.

Stateless, Im sorry but even the most devout of followers will tell you there are aspects of Islam they struggle with. In fact, I believe its actively encouraged.

MrsPeeleyWaly I don't think I understand your point sorry, can you explain?

This is how DH answered the 'all Muslims are terrorists' claim
DH is a massive Tottenham Hotspurs fan, season ticket until recently, girls are signed up too, some friends attend all home matches, some just watch on television, you can wear a Spurs shirt or not.
38,000 supporters attend home games, if 10 supporters start violence, make claims about Tottenham being the best team in league, telling everyone they must follow Spurs...that does not mean the other 37,990 agree with their methods. Yes, they all believe Tottenham are great, but don't agree with the rest of the rubbish these violent fans are coming out with.
So if DH wore his Spurs shirt after this match would everyone think he was a violent man? That he condoned their behaviour. Having to explain to people that yes, he loves Tottenham, gives them reasons for doing so and no, he is not 'one of those supporters'
"...but Spurs fans are anti Semitic ", " In 1903 6 Spurs fan broke a shop window", "My NDN is a Spurs fan and she left her clothes out to get darked on, are your clothes darked on?"

If anyone wants to learn about Islam, then as seen in pp, there are those detailing their experiences/life as a Muslim. If there are questions about why we don't eat 'naice ham'...or any ham for that matter, then I would be happy to answer. If I was to approach a Christian and ask why they think it's right to build alters to sacrifice bulls, sell their daughters or think disabled persons should not approach the alter of God...they would say these acts need to be seen in context of that time. That is the same with Muslims. Picking certain bits of any book without context would alter the message, Harper Lee would have penned a 'racist book' .
We seem to be debating/arguing over the age of Mary/Aisha and descending into a ' yeah but your religion is not better than mine' territory.
Muslims respect all monotheistic/Abrahamic religions. Muslims believe that everyone should be treated equally, with respect...this s practiced by the Muslims I know and myself...I can not answer for the idiots who choose to ignore basic beliefs in Islam.

Stately, Ive always been under the impression that to follow without question is not encouraged. That people are encouraged to ask questions and come to their own conclusion which hopefully is one that still wants them to be a follower.

In the Qu'ran there are passages that state that non-believers are not equal to believers and there are calls for jihad and to treat infidels harshly, I.e kill them and do it in a harsh way. How do moderate Muslims reconcile their peaceful view of Islam with these verses? It seems to be those verses that the terrorists use to give legitimacy to their actions. Christianity on the other hand teaches to treat everyone kindly and equally.

Christianity on the other hand teaches to treat everyone kindly and equally

Im sorry but I think you may be wearing rose tinted glasses. And no, I not a Muslim.

MrsPeeleyWaly I have never said I follow without question, I actually drove my parents and Quran school teachers mad when I was younger asking constant questions. I still question things, If there is something that I have struggled with or don't fully understand I will go and learn about it. That's why I can say that I do not know of a single bad thing that Muhammad pbuh said or did because in the past If I ever heard something I didn't like the sound of I would do my research so I knew the truth. Please don't confuse my satisfaction with ignorance.

Please don't confuse my satisfaction with ignorance

I never confused your satisfaction with ignorance.

Stateless- read my other post.

You don't have to all become terrorists. But it looks like many are atm. So what are these people hearing that is making them switch from everyday normal functioning humans to blowing themselves up ?
No I'm not qualified. But I'm aloud to express my ideas and opinions like you are.
I love all my Muslim family members and friends. I was born and lived in
Lebanon for many years. Not sure how my credentials will hold up.

I never confused your satisfaction with ignorance
Then I still don't understand what you were trying to say

user You claimed to know what true Islam is and accused practising, faithful Muslims of not knowing. It's a really odd thing to say, to put it mildly.

I never confused your satisfaction with ignorance
Then I still don't understand what you were trying to say

Im sorry I cant help you.

Trishanflips This is exactly what I have said in above post. Why is there a Christianity vs Islam. As Muslims we state belief in the Bible in the Torah too, we respect these books.
The Bible speaks of stoning those who work on the Sabath, selling your daughter when she is of suitable age and by the Bible, we should smite all MNers who blaspheme! Taking passages out of context means finding that passage and reading it along with the passage before and after, understanding what was going on historically, even culturally for the people to whom the book was revealed.
All this 'smiting blasphemers' and 'killing infidels' is not answering OP really

Islam is defined as submission to the will of Allah, as it is described in the Koran. Islamism is just Islam in its most pure form.

BeeThirtyThree You are talking about the Old Testament from which the three religions derive. However I understand that Muslims are supposed to accept the word of the prophet in the Qu'ran as true in its entirety and still applicable today. I do not hear Muslim leaders denouncing the passages of the Qu'ran that call for violence or advocate supremacy of believers or even promoting that they should be seen in the context of the temporal period. Perhaps that Quillian is making strides in this direction. In other faiths the Word is seen in the context of the time. I'm sorry if I have missed anything .

Im a white british convert from a regular church goer to islam and believe me anyone who has read the old and new testement throroughly will realise their is alot of oppression to women (read
In 1 Corinthians 14:34-35) as for the husbands rights over their wife, we have equal rights over them and then some (my husband would tell you who rules in our house!) We arent hiding behind the hijab out of fear of "our men" although that does not always apply for family pressure in certain cultural circumstances but thats a seperate matter, my personal reason for wearing hijab is I feel liberated that I can walk down a street and not have no male attention, it gives people to appreciate my intelligence and in a time when there are so many hate attacks towards muslims it gives me a chance to tackle stereotypes when people meet me for the first time. On to extremists, the people committing these acts arent muslims, they arent even human and anyone that has read the quran would know that "to kill one human is as if youve killed the whole of mankind" the only time we are permitted to kill is if we are fought against “But if the enemies incline towards peace, do you also incline towards peace. And trust in God! For He is the one who hears and knows all things.” (8:61) The Quran chapter “The Cow,” 2:190, says, “Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors.” if you have any questions dont hesitate to message me

Islam is not as matured as a single religion as Christianity is. There are so many sects with different ideologies all purporting to follow Islam & some imams don't even understand the context behind the words of the Qu'ran and so teach whatever rubbish they want - the Leaders of the different UK Islamic sects need to sit down and professionalize the workforce. That means degrees or approved courses in the same way that Catholic priests have to do.

In a sense isis are fighting back, it only takes looking at a few international news channels realise that. But they have killed many more muslims than they have people in the west, they dont have a certain criteria of people, they just kill everyone

In the Qu'ran there are passages that state that non-believers are not equal to believers and there are calls for jihad and to treat infidels harshly, I.e kill them and do it in a harsh way

To be honest when you look at these verses out of context they're shocking. I do wonder how many posters who are making comments like above have actually read the Quran in full or even the chapter they are quoting from? I only ask because I decided to read the Quran to better my understanding and I was surprised how many verses they were discussing disbelievers and how treatment of them should be kind, just etc. I'm kicking myself that I didn't make note of all the verses because I do feel it's a massive eye opener, was for me anyway. I have many Muslim friends and I finally understood the frustration.

What struck me is that disbelievers are regularly mentioned throughout the Quran and the only time violence is mentioned is in reference to an organised battle e.g. 'Kill them wherever you find them' etc. The reason these battles were occurring according to my knowledge is because the prophet was trying to spread Islam and make people aware worshipping idols, statues, the sun etc was incorrect. They did not like this and violence erupted towards Muslims hence the many battles at the time. Muslims were driven out of their homes and persecuted because of their faith. The few verses (and they are few in comparison to all the ones where it is stated you must be kind to disbelievers and not harm them unjustly or out of battle) have massively been taken out of context and I'm shocked by the number of MNers who are quoting these and believing this is what the Quran is about! Sorry but it shows you don't want to understand the religion and instead are regurgitating britain firsts finest material. It does anger me because when I hear people say ISIS are only doing what they believe god wants them to do, this is true Islam etc I think huh?? You essentially have the same mindset as them if you truly believe that. It isn't hard to educate yourself and I don't think anyone is in a position to claim Islam is all about violence to disbelievers if they haven't read the Quran in its entirety. In all honesty if they had read it, they wouldn't be able to make these claims. There's actually a whole chapter where the prophet is 'told off' by god because he was in a heated debate about religion with a disbeliever when a believer approached him for some advice and he made him wait whilst he continued his debate with the disbeliever. I can't remember the exact wording perhaps one of the lovely ladies on here can quote but it basically said the prophet shouldn't concern himself if people choose not to believe, he can advise but will never be able to change what is in their heart so he should focus on helping the believers and leaving the disbelievers to it. Nowhere did it say kill him if he doesn't adopt your way of living! It says throughout the Quran when referring to disbelievers to basically leave them to it, focus on your religion and let them focus on theirs. It really is about living peacefully, being kind and charitable, being patient and yes being very observant of their religion and adhering to its rules.

Somebody sent me a quote on ISIS being the khawarij which I believe translates to the dogs of hellfire I don't have it to hand but it was fascinating how the description of these khawarij fit perfectly with Isis and what they are currently doing. Perhaps somebody can share. Sorry to hijack the thread just wanted to share my experience.

I do not hear Muslim leaders denouncing the passages of the Qu'ran that call for violence or advocate supremacy of believers or even promoting that they should be seen in the context of the temporal period

That would be because these passages are far and few and in context of a battle, often after them it goes on to say how you shouldn't transgress limits and to be kind and just to disbelievers.
As for not hearing leaders speak up against Isis well that would be because the media don't give them a platform. There are loads of leaders, mosques, scholars from this country and actually also from Saudi completely refuting Isis's actions. Outside Westfield the other day there was a big stall called Islam against extremism talking to passers by, handing out literature, answering questions and worries and basically showing that they are just as, if not more against Isis then you and me are. I really do feel for Muslims who have to listen to this 'where are the moderate Muslims and leaders, why aren't they speaking up?!' crap when there are SO many speaking out. Again I'm sorry but I really feel this is all down to ignorance and not wanting to understand.

Stateless good question to ask those who post inflammatory posts about Islam, get responses but then disappear into thin air, just to be replaced by new people making the same accusations.

^This. Stateless, Sprinkles, Bee and other Muslims have enormous patience and take the time to write great posts but most of the posters asking questions hardly ever come back to engage.

It seems that people do not want to learn.

Take Lavenderhue. Challenged robustly by Pannn, they've abandoned their argument and just posted anorher comment that half of Muslims wanting to ban homosexuality. That's not debate.

Islamism is just Islam in its most pure form.

Exactly. If you read some American fundamentalist Christian forums, there are some awful things written there.

God designed the husband as the leader of the home 1Corinthians 11:3; Ephesians 5:23 The Bible describes this leadership as loving not dictatorial, condescending, or patronizing of his wife.

My family is very multicultural and we get on so well. Because we love each other and that's the key I think. Not letting our differences come between us.

StrawberryMummy90 I posted this on the kharijites on another thread:

I also think we should stop calling them Islamist terrorists but instead call them the name they would hate to be called - kharijites. They are not Muslim; they are kharijites. The Prophet Muhammad prophesised that a time would come when such people would emerge, calling themselves Muslims. He said they would seem very devout; in fact, they might do more acts of worship than us Muslims, but he was very harsh in his description of them and called them the dogs of the hellfire. Why? Because he said they would kill innocent people indiscriminately. They would kill innocent men, women and children and, if I remember correctly, would even behead people in the streets (this is exactly what they have been doing in Muslim lands). They would hate to be called kharijites because it takes them out of the fold of Islam. They should be called Kharijite terrorists.

There are lots of sayings of the Prophet relating to them; for instance, he said:

"There will appear at the end of time a people who are young of age, foolish-minded. They will speak with the best (and most-alluring) of speech (that is spoken) by people and will recite the Qurʾan but it will not go beyond their throats. They will pass out of Islām as the arrow passes through its game. Whoever meets them, let him kill them, for there is a reward for whoever kills them."

Basically, he was saying that they would be people who seem religious, they'd recite the Quran but not really understand it, and he said these kharijites should be killed (just as the police killed them on Saturday), because they are evil.

And this verse from the Quran is said to be referring to them:

Say: Shall we inform you of the greatest losers with regards to [their] deeds? Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life while they thought that they were acquiring good by their deeds!

And this is a quote from a Saudi scholar, which may surprise people:

'The Prophet said: "Whoever kills one who is under an agreement of protection will not smell the fragrance of paradise."

Do not be fooled by the sayings of foolish people, those who say: "These people are non-Muslims, so their wealth is lawful for us [i.e. to misappropriate or take away by murder and killing] for, by God, this is a lie. A lie about God's religion, and a lie in Islamic societies. We cannot say that it is lawful to be treacherous towards people whom we have an agreement with.'

What Muslims mean when we say 'people with whom we have an agreement' is people in whose lands we live or who live in

On to extremists, the people committing these acts arent muslims
They are muslims, they aren't representative of the majority of muslims but they are certainly muslims.