AIBU - Understanding Islam

[peggypatch99]

Hello All, first post (lurker of years and years).

I watched the concert last night, very emotional and tears shed, but afterwards I have felt myself become so angry, and I am not sure at what exactly, the world? Terrorists? The Government?

So I wanted to educate myself better and understand more about Islam in the west, how we are perceived and what life is like for Muslim's - I see posts on facebook and sometimes I agree but without knowing the ins and outs, which led me to trying to understand the muslim way of life and separate muslims from Islamic radicals - some people seem to put these in the same category despite the fact the IRA did not represent the Irish Catholic community as a whole.

However I looked at a Muslim forum, and to be honest I was shocked and upset at how we in Britain are perceived.

The forum (I appreciate not all Muslims will think in this manner) seeks to demonstrate how as women we must be completely submissive, if we are not men are allowed to strike us. There are conversations about how we are unclean unless we have undergone FGM, how in Britain we need to be taught that there is only one god, how homosexuality is wrong and people should be punished.

I wondered if perhaps Muslim ladies would share their thoughts on the forum, as this is giving me a distressing understanding of the religion, when I thought that Islam was a peaceful religion - but striking wives, withholding sex - or punishing and sleeping with other women, seems to be encouraged.

(This is advise given to a husband)
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

I am probably coming across as not very educated on the matter, and that is true, but would be interested in what Mumsnet think of this forum and whether forums like this are perhaps clouding our judgement of the religion as a whole.

I am Christian and can't say I visit Christian forums as there are always those who take scripture and amend the meaning for their own aim.

Here is the forum:
www.ummah.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?158-Marriage

Thank you, please note I am not a troll, I am someone wanting to learn better and understand. I think part of the problem is that without being educated properly it leads to incorrect thoughts and feelings which are very raw post attacks.

Ok maybe not.....for the poster asking about FGM it does feature here.

This looks horrific........

According to Sharia law:

• Theft is punishable by amputation of the right hand (above).
• Criticizing or denying any part of the Quran is punishable by death.
• Criticizing Muhammad or denying that he is a prophet is punishable by death.
• Criticizing or denying Allah is punishable by death (see Allah moon god).
• A Muslim who becomes a non-Muslim is punishable by death (compulsion in religion).
• A non-Muslim who leads a Muslim away from Islam is punishable by death.
• A non-Muslim man who marries a Muslim woman is punishable by death.
• A man can marry an infant girl and consummate the marriage when she is 9 years old.
• Girls' clitoris should be cut (Muhammad's words, Book 41, Kitab Al-Adab, Hadith 5251).
• A woman can have 1 husband, who can have up to 4 wives; Muhammad can have more.
• A man can beat his wife for insubordination (see Religion of Peace).
• A man can unilaterally divorce his wife; a woman needs her husband's consent to divorce.
• A divorced wife loses custody of all children over 6 years of age or when they exceed it.
• Testimonies of four male witnesses are required to prove rape against a woman.
• A woman who has been raped cannot testify in court against her rapist(s).
• A woman's testimony in court, allowed in property cases, carries ½ the weight of a man's.
• A female heir inherits half of what a male heir inherits (see Errors in Quran).
• A woman cannot drive a car, as it leads to fitnah (upheaval).
• A woman cannot speak alone to a man who is not her husband or relative.
• Meat to eat must come from animals that have been sacrificed to Allah - i.e., be "Halal".
• Muslims should engage in Taqiyya and lie to non-Muslims to advance Islam.
• The list goes on (see Sharia law in America, Canada, UK, Europe & Saudi Arabia)

I dont think any of that is right! Where did you get that peggy?

Sorry this is jolly. Forgot i name changed for something else

The vast majority of people in the world want to live in peace, give their children a good education and hope they have a better life.

This times 10. Unfortunately, too many people seem to ignore that and want to stereotype almost 2 billion people based on the actions of a few. I think we also have a situation where those of a racist/xenophobic/bigoted nature have found an outlet for their frustration that sadly has some degree of social acceptance. They can't get away with directing vitriol at black people, gays or most other minorities any more but, wey-hey, it's open season on muslims apparently. It sickens me.

Peggy, there is so much content out there produced by people with an agenda. You really need to check your sources. I don't know where you got that list from and I don't know enough about Islam or Sharia but I'd be willing to bet the Quran doesn't say anything about women driving cars.That may be one interpretation/version of Sharia but more likely it's a list of the most shocking examples from around the world pulled together by someone trying to stir up hate and distrust.

Again first link that comes up - proving again that the internet is full of rubbish!!!!!!!!!!

So I posted to prove a point, much like my original post, so what is the source, what is true and where can I read the truth?

And I accidently posted this on another thread to a poor lady asking how she can be inspired in life.....her shock at being presented with that, what a mistake to make!

What is your source Peggy? It's rather provocative to produce a list like that without saying where it's come from.
It's all pretty much rubbish and some of it leads from local cultural practices rather than faith. The rest is just plain old tripe to stir up discord.
The FGM is nonesense. The Prophet Muhammed pbuh spoke against such cutting or mutilation.

so frankly what are you doing regurgitating stuff you know to be divisive and damaging rubbish?

Peggy, many of the points have been disproven already and if needed we can go through them individually. They are all incorrect. Point being, just because it comes up on google search doesn't make it true. This material, by the sound of it is made and spread by those who are extremely islamophobic. The fact it comes up as your first link, says more about those who oppose us normal, peaceful Muslims and spread such hatred than it does about Islam.

Again, I can link the website I use, and millions of Muslims do around the world to look things up if you'd like?

Hi Stateless, hope youre doing ok.

Peggy, its a mistake to just pick up some 'list' from somewhere as some defining list. Its lists like that that feed right wing extremism.

Its only 200 years ago that we stopped hanging people for 'robbing a rabbit warren', so to take historical 'use' as definitive proof that thats whats happening today, is fraught with danger and inaccuracies.

However, clearly in some countries, the death penalty and parts of sharia law, is still enforced. Does that nation have the right to decide they wish to be governed by sharia law? Id argue yes. Its none of our business, and indeed our 'meddling' in the desire to implant western democracy on nations who clearly tick along just fine, has had horrendous results.

There are huge differences between a muslim nation, living under sharia, with the support of its citizens, to western, areligious democracy.

IMO, we're getting into difficulties attempting to combine the two. I absolutely believe in the right to religious freedom, but I have no idea how you separate sharia from islam, hence my stance on reform.

Just for the record, I would also ban Orthodoxy Jewish courts too, though the impact of these is minute compared to UK muslim numbers, and I dont believe the extreme element of Orthodox Jews have called for all out religious war against non-believers.

Do I believe in protecting the right to follow Islam? Yes. Do I believe in protecting the right to live under sharia law here in the UK? Absolutely not.

Sprinkles - can you please link to the site for me, at least? I am in need.

Sorry here is what came up on google

www.billionbibles.org/sharia/sharia-law.html

Shariah is a misunderstood and misused concept and is not unique to Islam. Every faith has its own form of shariah. In the United States, for example, our legal system already permits some narrow civil matters to be settled through alternative dispute resolution. Among such alternative mechanisms is the beit din, or rabbinical law courts. American Jews routinely go before beit din to arbitrate real estate deals, divorces and business disputes.

In Islam, shariah can be divided into five main branches: ibadah (ritual worship), mu’amalat (transactions and contracts), adab (behavior)> (morals and manners), i’tiqadat (beliefs), and ‘uqubat (punishments). Islam prescribes certain laws or principles that govern all five main branches. At its core, shariah is intended to develop and sustain a moral and just society.

The Qur’an does not specify any specific form of government other than a beneficent one that is based on adl or absolute justice:

“Verily, Allah enjoins justice, and the doing of good to others; and giving like kindred; and forbids indecency and manifest evil and transgression. He admonishes you that you may take heed.” (16:91).

There is no mention of religion in this verse. Pluralism and religious tolerance are Islamic values. The Qur’an stresses: “There is no coercion in religion” (2:257). Legislating shariah would mean imposing practices on people who do not share the underlying beliefs behind those practices. Shariah mandates the strict practice of absolute justice regardless of differences in faith, race, creed or any other distinction. True Islamic teachings, as practiced by the Prophet of Islam, promote a secular government with equal rights and privileges for its citizens and a separation of mosque and state. For example, the Prophet of Islam famously applied Talmudic law in resolving disputes among the Jews.

Unfortunately, certain Islamic countries have failed to observe the precondition of absolute justice before imposing shariah. Instead, they have unjustly imposed shariah as an instrument of power and control. Western nations scrutinize and magnify these examples. Countries such as Pakistan and Saudi Arabia have enmeshed religious extremism with political power resulting in a brutal brand of governance they brand “shariah.”

Extremists and their religious clerics invoke shariah to justify the killing of the innocent and vulnerable. They abandon the Quranic principles of governance in favor of discriminate and grossly improper applications of Islamic law. They view shariah as an instrument of conquest and carnage instead of justice and decency.

Someone else wrote this but explains it really well.

did you click on "About Us" before recycling their nonsense?

Sorry Pannn I should have thought to explain and I didn't sorry!

It is scary though that say a child might look something up like this and think Google is correct.

The more I learn, the more I see it is just the same with Christianity, you can look at one reading as one thing and another in another way (homosexuality for example)

What we need is to be able to understand the real truth - but will we ever when all religions can be construed in differing ways?

Pannn no I didn't, I posted to demonstrate what is on the internet, I should have been clearer, again not knowing what the truth is, you don't know which website is right.

Note to self.....the internet is all a lie!

Pannnn

It's www.alislam.org

They have a search bar top right hand side. You can pretty much search for anything and articles, books, YouTube videos etc will come up explaining most things if not everything.

It's what I use and am quite happy with. It's the Islam that makes sense to me.

peggy

We have to recognise that it's a platform that is vast and unregulated and therefore take everything with pinch of salt.

There are a lot of people with personal and political agendas out there. Just like with the DM, you need to sift through the sensationalism to get to the truth.

Also Islam shouldn't be able to be construed in different ways. People can chose to follow parts or none or all of it. They are still part of the Muslim faith but harmless as their dealing is with God alone. It is the select few that abuse the faith for personal gain that cause mayhem and it's not because of an interpretation. It's due to them using faith as a tool to spread their evil inclinations.

We need to make that distinction clear before making judgements.

Pannn, interesting site and one which appears the exact opposite of the first link.

www.alislam.org/library/articles/reply-to-allegation-that-shariah-law-must-be-established-everywhere-forcibly/

I posted but its vanished..anyways.. peggy If you want the best source of Islamic information, why not try reading the Quran?

Hi Caroline nice to see you on here, we don't agree on most things but I enjoy reading your posts! I'm doing great thank you

Note to self.....the internet is all a lie!

Of course it's not. The truth is out there, but so is a lot of nonsense. You need to apply a bit of critical thinking though rather than just taking the first thing you find, assuming it's correct and then either sharing it or using to form your own opinions.

Did you honestly think the list you felt fit to propagate represents the rules that the muslims you and I live beside, work with, socialise with or do business with live by? Didn't you read it and give some thought before deciding to share it?

Personally, I don't need to read the Quran or trawl the web trying to understand Islam. I honestly don't care. My common sense tells me that a few murderous nutjobs, many of whom probably have serious mental health issues, do not represent the wider muslim community.

Her other half, yes completely agree with you on all points, this is the problem if you know nothing, maybe those extremists have seen similar sights and take that as the true word.

I am glad the government are going to police the internet better they say.

Stateless, I think I might do that!

Thanks All.