When I hear "we won't let them win" I now think, Hallo! They are winning!

[bruffian]

How the hell can we stop this?

We do need more investment in the police and security forces. I don't see how anyone can argue against that.
We also do need to stop funding the spread of wahabism (something that should never have happened in the first place).
We also need to invest in mental health again, as a PP pointed out.
Elipsical I would say to go, but then everyone has to decide for themselves.
Having said that, I would expect a certain level of security and I would think twice about going in if that didn't happen.
I think we will have to get used to a higher level of security than previously, but then there didn't use to be many CCTV cameras around, and we quickly got used to them.

We should stop funding faith schools. Any faith schools in my atheist opinion. I am not saying that the men who commit these killings went to faith school but we need integration, not separation.

I think there is an issue within some cultures where Islam is regressive though. Women covering, not allowed to be alone with male non family members, people not speaking English, no alcohol - surely if you are an angry young man brought up in a very conservative environment it's easier to view Western culture as wrong and something to rail against?

Superficially I get on really well with my Muslim friends but there are some conversations we don't have.

I don't know, I just think the starting point within some cultures is nearer to a dislike and disdain for the way we live than for others.

I live in London, I am not scared, they are not winning, but I am angry and I want this situation to change. I don't think it is unreasonable to want something to be done about it.

The comforting words and unifying news headlines meant a lot to me at 7/7. Not this time, maybe I am jaded, maybe it's because I now have children and want this city to be a safer place?

What it does this time round, so close to a GE, is making me properly sit up and want to inform myself.

I don't think the news are being that sensationalist. Rolling coverage are just that, you get updated information when you seek it. I am not glued all morning to the TV screen wanting to know every detail.

Another thing the Rochdale lawyer said was that you could identify men in danger of radicalisation by their attitudes to girls and women.

it's a bit early to jump to conclusions about isis isn't it

Why do people do this bending over backwards to not blame ISIS thing? I saw it after Manchester - people saying 'maybe it was the IRA, etc'.

I'm sorry but please, wake up. Of course it's either a) ISIS or b) ISIS inspired

People have to start listening to terrorists and what they say rather than our Western liberal guilt trip ideas otherwise their won't be a Western, secular, liberal society a few decades down the line.
Great piece of scaremongering.

Or we can say that the terrorists are terrorists and we stand firm to our British Values of tolerance and inclusion. Nothing to do with a liberal guilt trip and everything to do with the idea that when people of all races, all faiths and none stand together in the name of tolerance and diversity we are better than being divided.

Alternatively, we can say our society won't exist and we'll be taken over by terrorists who hate us and act accordingly, we can alienate minority groups and in doing so lay all the foundations for terrorist groups to recruit.

I know which I would rather have.

Foureyes - I'd agree with that.

CrossWordSalad - read the link I posted right above your comment.

No, I don't think the specific ideology matters much. It's just a fig leaf, not a cause. The guy who murdered people in Manchester was a nasty, criminal, violent thug long before he discovered religion. The same applies to pretty much all the Islamic terrorists. Their violent extremism predates their interest in Islam. Hence the example I gave of the violent white neo-Nazi who converted to Islam. He might have picked a different fig leaf but his behaviour didn't change at all. In fact, the white neo-Nazis he lived with and who were his former best mates were busy bomb-making too.

So yes, I agree we should root out extremist clerics in the UK. But I'm not sure they're really the problem. The Manchester terrorist attended the pleasantly moderate Didsbury mosque. It wasn't there that he was 'radicalised'. Anyone who wants to can access an infinite supply of ISIS recruitment material over the net these days. And you can hardly ban the internet.

MaisyPops I understand your point but what is British Values of tolerance and inclusion? How to draw the line when there are values and behavior propsed in the Islam that is at odds with modern western values?

bruffian - certainly think the missing link here is violent disaffected men.

It's definitely a problem with entitled male violence. No accident that the Manchester bomber deliberately targeted young women and girls.

I'm in London. I have friends in Manchester. It's horrendous but no, I'm not remotely scared and it won't change what I plan on doing today or after. I don't think anyone has won.

If you look at this in an international perspective it is clearly not a 'tiny minority'. There are several states that are or have been controlled by Islamist extremists and regions within countries including Nigeria and Indonesia.

Looking at the Middle East, Africa and parts of Indonesia there is a huge amount of persecution of non-Muslims going on that the general public seem to be pretty ignorant about. It's creating huge amounts of refugees who don't get a tenth of the attention that the (mainly) Muslim refugee movement surrounding Syria got.

To cause this amount of international upheaval it's not a 'tiny minority'. It's a significant number.

Abitofaproblem - it's easy.

People's religion is not the issue. We don't demonise all Muslims because of the actions of a tiny minority.

Meanwhile we do not tolerate at all any kind of violence, threats etc.

I do think that Twitter, Facebook etc need to take much more action over violent threats on their networks. People who commit terror attacks pretty much always have a history of having got away with violent language before they progress to violent acts.

We should have a society that is 100% tolerant to people with different ways of life - until the point when their way of life violently threatens ours, in which cases we need zero tolerance.

People need to realise that we as a society will not tolerate violence - whether it's domestic violence, rape culture, terrorism etc. Quite a long way to go on that one yet...

So, one really good way to alienate minority groups is not to listen to them when they are being good citizens and telling the authorities that someone in their midst has been radicalized and is sympathetic to being a suicide bomber. The Manchester example, if true, shows that many people are prepared to step forward and do something bold in their communities and challenge radicalism, but when they stepped forward, and reported them (again, if those reports are true), nothing happened as a consequence.

That is incredibly undermining, and sends out the message- even if you do this brave thing within your community and root out radicalism, the backing won't be there.

There needs to be a review/inquiry into how such reporting is handled and what the outcomes are in terms of security responses. If in fact, there's no resources to watch/follow any one reported, beyond the absolutely highest risk people already being watched, there's no point in encouraging the communities to police such radicalism, is there? PREVENT also needs rigorous evaluation to find out if the unintended consequences are outweighing the main goals.

BillSykesDog - what do you see as the solution?

Going in and bombing the fuck out of Middle Eastern countries led by violent dictators is no longer as popular as it once was with the public...

They are winning. They are terrifying people

Speak for yourself. I'm not terrified. Sad for the people and their loved ones involved but I genuinely couldn't give a fuck. I know 7 people died, but other that I'm not watching the news or dwelling on it. I'm off in to Manchester shortly. I'm not scared and they haven't made me change the way I act, so they aren't winning me.

elgwyn the specific idealogy does matter. Radical Islam doesn't underlie all acts of violence but it is significant, at least in the UK.
Just as in the USA much of the violence there can be traced to the availability of guns and the underlying ethos of the right to bear arms.
The guy who murdered the concert goers in Manchester may have been violent, however he didn't murder anyone until after he converted to Islam, (and become radicalised, not suggesting it was the religion itself) and there's no evidence to suggest he would have committed mass murder if he hadn't done so.

I'm not 'terrified' either. I feel sadness for those involved and keen to look for a way forward to reduce hatred and conflict in the world.

The stated aims of ISIS are a worldwide caliphate. I don't get it when people say "if you change your plans / if you refuse to take the tube / if you move out of London to a sleepy village then you are letting them win". ISIS certainly would not consider that a victory!

But what's the chicken and what's the egg? Did he turn to mass violence because he was inspired by his reading of Islam?

Or would he turn to Islam because he was looking for something that would give him an excuse for mass violence? Given his previous history of gang violence, I tend to think the latter, you think the former.

We won't ever know as he's dead.

@ noeffingidea

Well said, Iris.

I'm sad. Very sad. Innocent people died.

But I'm not scared.

I thought the police said there was no record of Manchester bomber Abedi being reported by his community? They put out a statement a couple of days ago didn't they?

However the FBI allegedly flagged him and his Manchester terror cell. There is a history of jihads round his area. I think it's pushing it to blame anonymous radicalisation by internet for him.

it's not the attacks that will be responsible for a swing to extreme right wing in my opinion but the failure to respond to them by mainstream parties.

there is a problem with islamic ideology and it's compatibility to western values and successful multicultural society and respect for diversity.

there is a problem that even saying that generates accusations of racism or xenophobia or ignorance and requires immediate silencing.

they are winning in that we can't even discuss what they are doing and why without being silenced - let alone do anything about it.

I'm getting a bit fed up of people not saying what they really think.

We have an Islamist extremism problem in the UK. We need to tackle it; we can't keep waiting for an atrocity to carry out raids- if the police know who they are why are we not taking preventative action.

Islamist leaders need to take some responsibility now for condemning these attacks. I appreciate that most muslims are not terrorists but equally most terrorists attacking the UK are Muslim.