When I hear "we won't let them win" I now think, Hallo! They are winning!

[bruffian]

How the hell can we stop this?

With islamic terrorist attacks in run up to election its scarily likefiction is becoming fact.

Which of course I am, as we are discussing terror attacks in the UK

That was not specified in the OP. You may only be discussing terror attacks in the U.K, but I was not.

Sorry my last should have said this.

What those men did last night was awful but it is now the media who are spreading the terror through sensationalist reporting

Hear, hear adelina - constant repeating by journos. I listened to 10 mins of Sky News, the reporter was pushing the interviewee (Kane) to agree that he no longer felt safe in London etc etc etc. Fortunately the interviewee was calm and resigned not ranting and crying.

I don't want another week of sanctimonious self congratulatory vigils, love-ins, sing songs, flowers, unicorns and rainbows, that's worthless.

The politicos will line up to thank the emergency services while subtly scoring political points over each other - and the media will do their best to promote the love heart stories and "coming together" shite. I don't want to hear it, I want the government to actually do something

The one sure way we can ensure these attacks continue is to present it all as a 'clash of civilisations' between us and Islam.

That's pretty much ISIS's wet dream.

The best way to get them to stop is by good policing, which involves necessarily ensuring that relatives and friends of would-be terrorists trust the police and feel they're on their side, so they report stuff. We should also be putting more resources into following/watching those who have been reported as potential terrorists, rather than wasting time and money on pointlessly collecting all the telephone, internet etc records of the entire population, the vast majority of whom are no more likely to commit terror than they are to go to Mars.

I don't want another week of sanctimonious self congratulatory vigils, love-ins, sing songs, flowers, unicorns and rainbows, that's worthless. I feel like this too but it seems to help a lot of people.

I absolutely agree elgwyn this is a fight of moderates of any type against a tiny, violent minority, it's always hung onto world events or ideology but they act because they feel so estranged from humanity that they don't see the people they kill as human.

What those men did last night was awful but it is now the media who are spreading the terror through sensationalist reporting

DH and I were just saying this - the media should just show the Police Commissioner's dry, factual statement (again and again if they wish), but should not be allowed to milk the situation for viewer numbers and feed the drama - it must be creating copy cat attacks. I'd bet half the attacks would not happen if they weren't given such extensive, sensationalist, blanket media coverage.

The lib dems got the coalition government to do an investigation of foreign funded extremist groups. Guardian report this week says it is probably too sensitive to publish!

This is the scandal.

Oh I do think the don't look back in anger and we're Manchester and we stand together stuff was powerful and part of a united solution along side the defense services personally. We need soaring rhetoric alongside the security responses.

The security services are preventing numerous attacks but they can't tell us which ones all the time because it puts their operatives who are deep undercover at even more risk than they already are.
It is not realistic to think that any government, even with unlimited resources, would be able to prevent all attacks. That would mean living in a world devoid of evil and that is not possible with the human race.

bejazzled
We don't how how many attacks THEY ARE stopping.

It's a horrific tragedy. Im no lover of our current government but there's too much of people saying the government aren't doing anything /enough.

The security services have to get it right 365 days a year. For an event like this, a couple of people just have to get it 'right' (in their mind) once.

Now isn't the time for blame the government, blame Muslims etc. Now IS the time to say we are standing together and we will not be divided because staying United IS doing something. Without social, ethnic or racist divided they don't have a stream of people wanting to sign up.

It's not a nebulous evil behind these attacks. It's a sick philosophy that is being taught.

Exactly, NoLottery - there is no difference at all between far right white supremacist terrorists like the neo-Nazi who murdered two men in Portland last week, and far right Islamic supremacists, who murderd 7 in London this week.

Same hateful ideology of racial superiority and clash of civilisations, same deluded sense of superiority, same callous disregard for human lives, even same choice of weapon and murder method eg slitting people's throats.

Sometimes even literally the same person, as here:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/25/neo-nazi-islamist-terror-narratives-upside-down

elgwyn So you don't think anything needs to be done about the spread of Islamist extremist ideology (Wahhabism) through Saudi funding of mosques etc?

We just need to focus on the end result but not attempt to prevent radicalisation and the spread of the underlying ideology?

www.independent.co.uk/voices/manchester-attack-salman-abedi-salafi-jihadism-wahhabism-isis-al-qaeda-islam-muslim-suicide-bombing-a7754301.html

I absolutely agree elgwyn this is a fight of moderates of any type against a tiny, violent minority, it's always hung onto world events or ideology but they act because they feel so estranged from humanity that they don't see the people they kill as human

I might be misunderstanding but there is clearly an ideology behind ISIS and Islamist terrorism.

If the risks are very low that you would be caught up in a terror attack whilst going about your usual day, how do you feel about potentially putting yourself in a situation by going to a large concert or a London / big city landmark.
I know I feel relatively safe going about my business in my home town but we are meant to be going to Wembley in two weeks time for a concert and my kids are worried about us going saying that we should be avoiding large crowds and large gatherings. I don't know, part of me feels I shouldn't let it worry us and we should go and life should go on and the other thinking they may be right.

Hopefully this will put to rest the belief that all terrorists are just doing this because of Western intervention in the Middle East. The fact that they were shouting "This is for Allah" as they brutally murdered people should make it clear what their ideology and motives are. People have to start listening to terrorists and what they say rather than our Western liberal guilt trip ideas otherwise their won't be a Western, secular, liberal society a few decades down the line. Bloody angry today.

elgwyn I agree with you, and I don't find it offensive to point out that having had over 20% cuts in the police service and army that this is a bad time in terms of resource capacity to be stretched like this, and I personally (making 'political capital' out of it if you like) do blame the politics of austerity. I know a lot of police officers and their nerve to do the job has to be stronger and stronger as they know their capacity, especially out of the very big cities, if there was an incident or incidents requiring an armed response is very compromised by cuts. Also, fewer police on the streets means that the softer side of intel/links with communities are compromised and then it does all become about trying to listen into to your targets for the security services and there simply aren't enough of them.

People were accused of making political gains out of this, but I find it amazing everyone isn't incredibly angry that we have fewer police and army now than 5 years ago to protect us. All the other stuff we have in life, like freedom, ability to buy lovely things, live in nice houses, get healthcare is predicated on being able to walk around safely.

The trouble with the narrative of 'keep calm and carry on' (which I agree with mostly and I do follow in my own life) is that it very quickly shuts down discussion about how things could be different- I see it on this thread, the security services are doing the best they can (well, yes, but obviously there is a massive problem, we can't live with three incidents every 10 weeks indefinitely), we should just thank the police but not mention that they themselves are very worried about their capacity as that's political, we can't intervene in potential radical populations otherwise they'll be more alienated- it's all very defeatist and non-blaming which is nice and everything, but isn't much of a plan for a way forward. I don't want this to be the new normal and I'm prepared to vote/pay for/support new initiatives to make sure it doesn't become the new normal either- just as in NI, people did something radical and 'unacceptable' on paper to get the peace process moving.

Elipsical personally I would go but I would make more of a note of escape routes, have phone charged up, an idea of where to meet if something happened and you got separated getting safe.

Elipsical over 2500 people are killed in road accidents in the UK every year, countless more injured. Apparently August is the month with the most road deaths statistically each year. Are you going to stop using the roads?

The solution I think is to stop all their publicity and play the attacks right down. The more it covers our news screen and people are worrying and panicking, that's what spurs them on. Obviously no one should be getting killed ever but the hysteria is just what they want.

I'd draw a huge distinction between ISIS in the Middle East - clearly a brutal govt that needs eradicating in my view as it will not compromise and enslaves people, and our British people getting used as their tools.

The latter are, yes, just hanging their estrangement on this ideology and yes we need to have programmes to bring them back to humanity where we can, but needs to be so carefully done - we have got far right extremists, far left extremists, all these estranged people need help to avoid resorting to violence.

Thanks I understand the statistics with regards to the risk but surely the risks are far higher if you deliberately put yourself in amongst large groups and gatherings in large cities.

Ive never ever considered not going to an event or travelling before but honestly it's getting too much now.