When I hear "we won't let them win" I now think, Hallo! They are winning!

[bruffian]

How the hell can we stop this?

If the West stays bedfellows with the Saudis nothing will ever change

M

What preventative action is there though? Locking people up? I believe that was felt to fuel the problem in NI. The authorities have to act within the law and unless there is clear and present dangers the law appears to protect individual rights. Security services must be working their backsides off using all the tools they can but until atrocities happen people appear to get outraged by, for example, smart TV's that can provide intelligence.
Longer time to investigate potential terrorists and more police to do this must be likely now

elgwyn I'm not an expert on the religion of Islam , but I do believe there is something in it that can be interpreted to inspire violence. There is a connection, there are too many (disproportinate) violent events committed by by Muslims/in the name of Islam for it to be just a coincidence.
As to your other point about girls and women being specifically targeted at the Ariana Grande concert, as a result of 'male violence' - that seems to be trying to shoehorn facts to fit your theory. It just happened to be a major public event that was hapoening at that time. There would also be reasonably expected to be male staff, relatives of the children, even the odd boy fan. There are enviroments that are 'exclusively female' - gyms, spas, girl schools, health centres. These have been targeted in the past as an example of male hatred towards women.
Also targeted in this current spate of violence (or at least over the last few years) - a football match , an outdoor market, a concert, cafes, hotels, public transport, etc etc. All of them involving men, women and children, and presumably designed to cause as many casualties as possible.

Dear god namechangeharvey, how much more do Muslim leaders need to do? They have LOUDLY condemned this stuff. They've taken adverts in newspapers, joined vigils, given statements.

What do you want them to do when it's not them in charge of it all?

Why aren't we demanding the Archbishop of Canterbury to personally finish off the Westboro Baptist Church and their ilk?

We have a govt that thinks money makes it ok that we deal arms to the majority of our own watch list. Aren't we awesome?

Bees there seems to be some controversy over what Manchester police say happened (lone bomber, no-one told them) and what other security sources are saying (part of a well established network, plenty of red flags flying, FBI flagging at the very least). It's not possible for us on the outside to know now I don't think, but looking at how more moderate people within communities could better report would surely help.

A case of watch this space then.

This was posted on one of the thread's about the Manchester bombing about the pleasant Didsbury mosque.

There was also a question about a leaflet condemning western civiliasation handed out at the mosque on Question Time. I will find the link.

aldgatepup.wordpress.com/2017/05/24/manchester-mosque-condemns-terrorist-attack-but-hosts-antisemitic-anti-kuffar-and-homophobic-scholars/

@CrossWordSalad and the Muslim Council of Britain has issued a statement condemning the attacks. The problems in Didsbury Mosque do need dealing with but don't reflect all Muslims. Nor does Islam have the monopoly on anti-semitism.

Here's the Question Time segment

m.youtube.com/watch?v=9PNkar7Yjtk

How to draw the line when there are values and behavior propsed in the Islam that is at odds with modern western values?
For a start we don't say 'terrorists used a version of Islam to justify the attacks therefore islam is at odds with western values".

The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful and do live perfectly lovely happy lives in Britain. The Muslim council of Great Britain has strongly condemned the attacks. Muslims have been helping people affected by the attacks.

Any discussion of Islam being incompatible with values of tolerance are exactly the kind of divisive rhetoric that plays into the hands of the terrorists. (Bonus points if threads or discussions turn into slinging verses of scripture around that conveniently prove their point. I mean, my old testament mentions not wearing gold but I do.)

The problems in Didsbury Mosque do need dealing with but don't reflect all Muslims. Nor does Islam have the monopoly on anti-semitism

Why do people keep accusing other people of saying things they haven't said? Where have I said anything about all Muslims and where have I suggested Islam has a monopoly on anti-Semitism?

polaro but I agree with namechangedharvey when the Tunisian attacks happened on LBC the presenter of the programme being aired said "why aren't we monitoring British mosques and what is being preached in them?"

Yes in most British mosques they don't preach hate crimes and jihad etc but I'm sure in some mosques in the past they do or have been allowed to veer to that extreme (Abdu Hamza etc). I think they should also be far more pro active in spotting the lone wolf types like the Libyan attacker of Manchester and in getting their community together to fight non jihad talk etc.

These men (and women) are obviously affected too by online forums encouraging jihad but really there should be cohesion and understanding. the Rochdale TV drama did bring up Muslim men and women at the end who seemed to think their community had done nothing wrong and they were being blamed for others sins. Which was true, but you couldn't not see how many men had been convicted of those crimes. And it's sticking your head in the sand for these Muslim men who were not convicted to not have known about the activities of their Muslim community but kept quiet or condoned it. There is still gaps the way I see it between some sectors of the Muslim community yet also cohesion. We need to work with all of that, building cohesion and understanding.

CrossWordSalad - slightly odd site you posted a link to. It names some random Muslims it says have spoken at Didsbury mosque but not when. It then lists some random statements - not attributed individually - and claims someone (one of the three named - but which one said which thing?) said them at some point in their life (but not at Didsbury mosque).

No evidence is given for any of these claims, except for a short video clip which is rather traditionalist for my tastes but not actually incitement to anything.

So who exactly said what, and when? And what proof do we have? And do we have any evidence that even if they did say any of this, that Didsbury mosque could reasonably have been expected to have been aware of it before inviting them?

None of this is answered. The site clearly has an axe to grind but it seems far from 'proof' of any wrongdoing by anyone, let alone Didsbury mosque.

On the other hand, an old friend of mine who lives near the mosque visited it last week (she's not Muslim, and didn't wear a headscarf) and she said they were lovely and really welcoming, even though they must all be starving given it's Ramadan and given they must be very busy dealing with all the press attention and harrassment since the attacks.

This young Muslim woman also spoke on that Question Time

Excuse the Westmonster link, can't find another at the mo.

www.westmonster.com/young-british-muslim-calls-for-end-to-saudi-funded-mosques/

I'm not an expert on the religion of Islam , but I do believe there is something in it that can be interpreted to inspire violence. There is a connection, there are too many (disproportinate) violent events committed by by Muslims/in the name of Islam for it to be just a coincidence.

There is nothing inherent in Islam that inspires violence. Religions can certainly be interpreted to further nearly any agenda by a bit of selective reading/quoting of religious texts. Islam is no more prone to such interpretation than any other religion. Of course, many, many acts of violence have been committed in the name of Christianity over the centuries. But it is perfectly possible for followers of Christianity or Islam to disavow violence and extremism.

Fundamentalist ideologies of any stripe can be very dangerous indeed. But it makes no sense whatsoever to paint an entire religion with such a broad brush.

Elgwyn you stated in your post @11.04 that you believe the Manchester bomber was looking for an excuse to commit 'mass voilence' as a result of his former gang actiivity.
Random acts of violence and mass murder aren't really very common in the UK , other than those connected to Isis/Daesh. The last one that comes to mind is Dunblane, and action was taken to prevent further crimes of this kind.
Taking religion as a whole, violent crime rates drop with increasing secularisation, across all societies.Therefore it's naive to attempt to ignore the influence of radicalised Islam in these incidents.

noeffingidea - fundamentally, I think the Manchester bomber was a nasty piece of work who would have ended up killing people Muslim or not.

Dot I used the words 'something' and 'can be interpreted' . I am well aware that the majority don't do this. Does this really have to be stated in every single post in every discussion on this subject?

elgwyn can you give some examples of random mass murders committed in the UK that are unconnected to Isis? (other than the IRA)
They just don't seem to be happening, therefore we have to look at fundamental/radicalised Islam as a causal factor. Not to do so is simply being illogical.
Of course it isn't the only factor - I would say that inadequate mental health care is another significant factor.

noeffingidea

Why 'other than the IRA'? I would have thought the IRA was an excellent example. They were also mainly petty gangsters who used religion as a fig leaf for organised extortion.

And lots of examples outside the UK. Breivik springs to mind. He claimed to be Christian rather than Muslim of course. Norway is not a million miles from the UK, geographically or culturally.

elgwyn No doubt terrorism has many causes, but I think to deny that radical Islamism is a factor in Islamist terrorism is quite hard to argue. If it's all just dissaffected men, why have so many terrorist attacks in the last decade or so been Islamist related if there is no connection?

Well, why were so many terrorist attackers in the previous decade Catholic or Northern Irish?

Do you think there's something fundamentally violent and murderous about either Northern Irish people or Catholics??

Isis are clear that this is a holy war, religiously motivated.
It's hard for us to understand but when they say this, I think we should believe them.