When I hear "we won't let them win" I now think, Hallo! They are winning!

[bruffian]

How the hell can we stop this?

I actually think TM statement is great.

I posted earlier as I really believe some cultures' practice of Islam is unhelpful in promoting tolerance towards Wrstern culture.We can be lovely and tolerant and provide interpreters and not question things because they are cultural but if it's not coming the other way then we have a problem. Sure lots of us exists side by side but that's not true integration.

Who knows what the answer is.

Off out for Sunday lunch but here's Owen Jones statement which I think says what needs to be said.

"London has far more love than the terrorists have hatred. London is just as it always was today. It's a Sunday so it's quieter than usual. People are in cafes, restaurants, and pubs. Parents have taken their children out. People are laying in parks. Dogs are being walked. Box sets are lazily being watched at home. People who are standing on the left side of the escalator are being tutted at, as are tourists who suddenly stop in the middle of busy walkways and people who are listening to music on their headphones on public transport too loud.
That's not because London isn't angry at the terrorists, or not mourning the lives of those murdered by these twisted extremists. It's because a city which has endured all sorts of horror and attack is not going to surrender to terror and fear, which is what the terrorists want.
Let's remember those who died, let's come together, let's debate how we defeat extremists - and let's also do what the terrorists don't want: for us to get on with our lives without fear and hatred."

I consider TM To be an extremist.

Yes, if only she stopped stabbing people in the street and blowing up little girls and gay men. Perhaps we should ask what radicalized her and introduce some measures to see how we can deal with her grievances?

When you know they won't stop until they change you or kill you I think it's time to pull people up on their opinions. I had a colleague say the Manchester attack was an election stunt. I was the only person to say that was a rather extreme view. He later apologised saying it was a joke ffs. Next time I am reporting this to the Head; he is a teacher. Tolerance is a two way street but for many is is one way.

I actually think TM statement is great.

I agree.

I consider TM To be an extremist.

Okay, well if you think TM is an extremist and object to less tolerance of Islamist extremism, I think we can see where you are coming from.

I take it you are not on Twitter *happypoo" ? Owen Jones at 12.06 tweeted "Currently in a pub in central London, full of people laughing and chatting. Could be any Saturday night. No-one is scared or cowed"

So I think we can safely ignore anything he has to say on the topic.

Reporting is fine.
Asking witnesses for their accounts is fine.

What I dislike is the fact they do it when they are still in shock and adrenaline fuelled. You get these really quickly spoken records with glorified details.

I went to a gig last night at London's Olympic Stadium. The gig was great and I felt safe.

However, when we came out huge crowds were herded alongside, not through, Westfields, along the road and construction areas, with stop and go signs controlling the human traffic. It took an hour for the crowd to be herded to Stratford station. This was previously a 5 min walk. There was lots of construction around so not normal routes through. I didn't know the area and wondered what was going on and if that was usual. why our crowd were just stationary at regular points. I could only see barriers ahead. we were just getting news about the attacks and I felt claustrophobic. I realised how scary, immobilising it is to be caught in a huge crowd with nowhere to go.

I've been gigging for 30 years. It's made me consider crowds and large gatherings. I certainly would not want my kids in that herd and am still reeling at how it was 'managed' by the council. nobody knew what was going on. people were getting angry by me, rattling barriers jumping over railings.

The gig was fantastic - security tight but being caught afterwards as thousands tried to get out the area was un- nerving.

I consider TM To be an extremist.

Like the exremists hacking people to death with the knifes in London last night and the extremist who blew up innocent kids and parents in Manchester you mean?

She's about as extreme as my Auntie Doris.

The woman has been in power five minutes in the shittest job ever, given the balls up Blair, Brown and Cameron made ... leaving her with Brexit to contend with, something she didn't even campaign for herself, but which she is now tasked with, and hampered and hijacked at every turn.

The abuse she's subjected to (especially on here) is off the scale - she is to blame for all the ills of the world apparently - and if I were in her shoes, I'd say 'fuck it' and walk away. That she doesn't, is a mark of the woman in my book.

If think Corbyn or Farron or anyone else could do a better job ... then you'll get your chance at the ballot box on Thursday.

All this peace and love stuff is irritating. I totally understand the impulse to say this stuff but ...Jesus Christ there are families right now literally torn apart.

People are burying their children who simply attended a concert.

This whole, 'keep drinking, keep smiling' attitude seems glib to me.

@Fontella - before she was leader she was Home Secretary. In that capacity she was warned that her policies were putting people at risk. She accused the Police Federation of scare mongering. She was wrong.

This whole, 'keep drinking, keep smiling' attitude seems glib to me.

Yes, I agree with this to an extent. There is a picture doing the rounds on social media from last night of a bloke running down the street with his pint still in hand and the picture is accompanied by lots of 'this is true British spirit, bloke doesn't want to leave his pint behind, we will not allow our night to be ruined' etc - 7 people were fucking murdered last night.

I know that essentially we do have to 'keep calm and carry on' but some people seem to be falling over themselves to show the world that they are not terrified, and forgetting the actual victims in all of this.

It's nothing to do with foreign policies. ISIS have said they hate our way of life and until we embrace islam they will continue.

What on earth did My mean when she said that "we need to become far more robust in identifying [Islamic extremism] and stamping it out – across the public sector and across society."?

Who in the public sector is she accusing of currently being soft on extremism? I think she should make it clear. Teachers? Nurses? Police? Who is she blaming this time for her own failures as PM and Home Secretary to get to grips with the problem?

@DoctorDonnaNoble

France has more police per capita than the UK

'When I hear "we won't let them win" I now think, Hallo! They are winning!'

Dear OP - this means to not play into their hands and not give them what they want which is btw

1. People spreading hate

2. People being too scared to go out etc

Do you want to be a terrorists puppet? Doing exactly what they want? No?

Neither do people who say we won't let them win, lets get back to work etc etc

It doesn't mean we don't think it's terrible, tragic, and don't care. far from it.

I'm not so sure about TM's statement. The term 'enough is enough' is often used by those who in the next breath will say:

• Islam is the problem
• Religion of hate
• outlaw Islam
• deport them all etc.

As a Muslim myself, I agree and support my government to do whatever is necessary to eradicate this evil that has nothing to do with my faith. While I understand, inevitably, that means more checks and more scrutiny for myself and other Muslims, I also worry that these sweeping and careless statements encourage islamophobia. I am proud of my faith. It enables me personally to strive to be a better person within my community. The last thing we want is to make every Muslim feel criminal and as though their faith is an issue when it is not. It is simply a tool used by the power hungry, evil Daesh and their pawns are those vulnerable members of society that are looking for a sense of belonging. While a lot more severe, I see the similarity between that and gang violence where impressionable youngsters are roped in because they are part of something. But this is a small part of the issue.

Just look at these men, what understanding, other than what they have been told have they got of their faith? Very little so I think, while aware that this may be controversial to some, the true message of peaceful Islam has to be spread. And part of that includes monitoring mosques and faith schools to ensure no extremists views are being passed on.

It's nothing to do with foreign policies. ISIS have said they hate our way of life and until we embrace islam they will continue.

I wouldn't say its nothing to do with it, but to try and pin all the blame on it is stupid and also missing a rather larger elephant in the room.

If people think that stopping arms sales to Saudi will just stop the petro dollars from funding Whabism is also pretty niave, Saudi are an issue but to put all the blame on them when they are in an anti ISIS coalition shows how much of a mess it all is.

Edsheerhan I don't think people are forgetting the victims, but we have to show our spirit as well.
I remember when Brussels was on lock down and the security forces asked for social media silence and everyone responded by posting pictures of their cats being cute. I thought it was great and kind of inspiring.

I was surprised at the mention of 'public sector' as well. Do you think it is because the government is the public sector employer? Or is the implication that they think there is extremism in education, teaching, NHS, local authorities? Or is it an indication that there will be policy changes throughout these public sector areas to identify extremism in our communities?

*Corby, as much as I'm not a fan, at least has spoken about the funding of extremist mosques and schools by Saudi Arabia.

May just shook their hands and took their money.*

Agreed. Hard-right policies are exactly what these murderous lunatics want.

I'm not so sure about TM's statement. The term 'enough is enough' is often used by those who in the next breath will say:
- Islam is the problem
- Religion of hate
- outlaw Islam
- deport them all etc.

But TM didn't say any of those things, or hint at or imply them.

I imagine the "public sector" comments are mainly to do with education. I can't remember the details but there was the Trojan Horse scandal in schools a few years back and there may (I don't know) be issues with some single faith academies.

But also universities. The university the Manchester bomber attended had rejected the Prevent strategy and refused to cooperate. I must say, I was under the impression that all public bodies had a duty to cooperate with Prevent presumably not. Perhaps TM is proposing tightening up on this.

No, I don't think the specific ideology matters much. It's just a fig leaf, not a cause. The guy who murdered people in Manchester was a nasty, criminal, violent thug long before he discovered religion.
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/28/salman-abedi-manchester-arena-bomber-radicalisation
Not quite true.
But whatever the truth, the fateful journey that Abedi made to the Manchester Arena last Monday started long ago. “He’s not been radicalised by Isis,” Rafiq said. “His life story is all about being radicalised from birth and then Isis cherrypicked him.”

Derxa excellent article. I agree with it and the description of layers upon layers of radicalisation from the birth are true. Just reminds me of that shambolic home office committee meeting with the dad of the girl who went to Syria. I sat there watching this poor old dad, lost confused.... Why didn't we get the letter, why did my girl go.... I felt sorry for him!! Few days later we see dear old dad, front line at extremists rally with a snarling face burning an American flag.

Oh yes the teddy bear dad, I cried for him.